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Matt Kuchar allowed to repair an irregularity on the putting surface?

post #1 of 64
Thread Starter 
Are any rules guys watching the Barclays? What is the precedent for this ruling on hole 8? My understanding was that spike marks or other "irregularities" could not be repaired until after completion of the hole.
post #2 of 64

I just saw that too. Spike marks are totally different than a putter mark, or ball mark. Which you can repair.

 

The guy even called in the rules comittee to verify. Not sure whats the problem?

post #3 of 64
He didn't repair it himself, but got an official to repair it. A player can only fix ball marks on the green.

When it comes to repairing damage to the course in general, and when officials should or should not do it, I don't know.
Quote:
c. Repair of Hole Plugs, Ball Marks and Other Damage

The player may repair an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball, whether or not the player’s ball lies on the putting green. If a ball or ball-marker is accidentally moved in the process of the repair, the ball or ball-marker must be replaced. There is no penalty, provided the movement of the ball or ball-marker is directly attributable to the specific act of repairing an old hole plug or damage to the putting green caused by the impact of a ball. Otherwise, Rule 18 applies.

Any other damage to the putting green must not be repaired if it might assist the player in his subsequent play of the hole.
post #4 of 64
Thread Starter 
I understand Kuchar did not repair the damage himself. My question is why would the official allow the repair at all? Given the ruling you cite, my impression was that this could not be done
post #5 of 64

This is a possibility:

 

16-1a/13

Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q.An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player's line of putt. What is the ruling?

A.There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable as the physical conditions were not altered with the intent of affecting the playing of the hole.

In equity (Rule 1-4), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition. The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii). (Revised)

post #6 of 64
Thread Starter 
Thank you for posting this, but my understanding is that this exception only applies when the green is accidentally damaged by a member of the player's group. I don't believe Gary Woodland caused the damage in question. If it is an unknown prior group, don't you have to play the course as you find it?
post #7 of 64

Honestly i hate the rule were you can't fix spike marks. I always thought it was stupid that you could fix ball marks, which a BALL (and outside object) caused, yet you can't fix a spike mark which a SHOE (outside object) caused.

post #8 of 64

Another possibility

 

16-1c/3

Old Hole Plug Sunk or Raised on Line of Putt

Q.A player's ball lies on the green. An old hole plug is sunk or raised on the player's line of putt. What relief is available to the player?

A.The player may attempt to raise or lower the plug to make it level with the surface of the putting green - Rule 16-1c. If this is impossible, he may discontinue play and request the Committee to raise or lower the plug. If the Committee cannot level the plug without unduly delaying play, the Committee should declare the plug to be ground under repair, in which case the player would be entitled to relief under Rule 25-1b(iii).

post #9 of 64
Thread Starter 
I do as well. I think it's the worst rule in golf, actually. But given that it is on the books, I am having trouble understanding the dispensation the rules official gave Kuchar today.
post #10 of 64
Thread Starter 
Rulesman thanks for the reply. I did not hear the entire discussion (I was watching the tournament on mute till that point), but the commentators did make reference to the fact that it appeared to be an indent from a prior players putter - it was not a hole plug, I don't believe.
post #11 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Thank you for posting this, but my understanding is that this exception only applies when the green is accidentally damaged by a member of the player's group. I don't believe Gary Woodland caused the damage in question. If it is an unknown prior group, don't you have to play the course as you find it?

 

The Decision 16-1a/13 doesn't require that the damage to the putting green be caused by a member of the aggrieved player's group.

post #12 of 64
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post

The Decision 16-1a/13 doesn't require that the damage to the putting green be caused by a member of the aggrieved player's group.

I don't believe that is correct. The rule specifically references a line of putt, which cannot exist outside a players group.
post #13 of 64

The committee (which the rules official is part of) may repair any damage on the putting green which it sees fit to do.  Damage to the hole is another case where the committee or their representative should be called in to make the repair.  The only point in the rule being discussed is that the player is limited in what he is allowed to repair.  (By the way, I didn't see the incident in question as I was playing golf  z5_smartass.gif  )

post #14 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The committee (which the rules official is part of) may repair any damage on the putting green which it sees fit to do.  Damage to the hole is another case where the committee or their representative should be called in to make the repair.  The only point in the rule being discussed is that the player is limited in what he is allowed to repair.  (By the way, I didn't see the incident in question as I was playing golf  z5_smartass.gif
  )

Woo hooooo.......

First round in how long?!

Why haven't I seen it posted on "what did I shoot today" ? Talk to us! a2_wink.gif
post #15 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The committee (which the rules official is part of) may repair any damage on the putting green which it sees fit to do.  Damage to the hole is another case where the committee or their representative should be called in to make the repair.  The only point in the rule being discussed is that the player is limited in what he is allowed to repair.  (By the way, I didn't see the incident in question as I was playing golf  z5_smartass.gif
  )

Woo hooooo.......

First round in how long?!

Why haven't I seen it posted on "what did I shoot today" ? Talk to us! a2_wink.gif

 

Actually 3rd round... but nothing to talk about.  I'll post more over there.

post #16 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motley01 View Post

I just saw that too. Spike marks are totally different than a putter mark, or ball mark. Which you can repair.

 

The guy even called in the rules comittee to verify. Not sure whats the problem?

 

Not sure if you are saying you can fix a putter mark, but you can not.

 

Saw the telecast.  At first Slugger, (rules guy), was not going to give relief  Said something about not knowing how/where he would move the ball,  the ball was off the green I believe.  Kuchar protested and Slugger got on the radio.  Next thing we see, Slugger is repairing the green.  FWIW, Feherty  said afterwards he was told by Slugger it was determined that the damage was excessive so he repaired it.  I believe the comment was that it was more than a putter mark made by someone leaning on their club.  Looked like some one banged the green with a putter.

 

As a player you can not fix things like this on the green.  If you think it's excessive, you need an official. 

 

Also, keep in mind that relief for interference for an abnormal ground condition for line of putt/play is not applicable if the ball is not on the green. 

post #17 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

Also, keep in mind that relief for interference for an abnormal ground condition for line of putt/play is not applicable if the ball is not on the green. 

 

And Kuchar was not on green. 

post #18 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post

 

Not sure if you are saying you can fix a putter mark, but you can not.

 

Saw the telecast.  At first Slugger, (rules guy), was not going to give relief  Said something about not knowing how/where he would move the ball,  the ball was off the green I believe.  Kuchar protested and Slugger got on the radio.  Next thing we see, Slugger is repairing the green.  FWIW, Feherty  said afterwards he was told by Slugger it was determined that the damage was excessive so he repaired it.  I believe the comment was that it was more than a putter mark made by someone leaning on their club.  Looked like some one banged the green with a putter.

 

As a player you can not fix things like this on the green.  If you think it's excessive, you need an official. 

 

Also, keep in mind that relief for interference for an abnormal ground condition for line of putt/play is not applicable if the ball is not on the green. 

 

So if the damage was excessive doesn't that make it abnormal?  The problem I had with the ruling was that he was off the green.  I don't know where in the rules it says that damage has to be excessive in order to be fixable.  I was also a little surprised when I looked to see exactly what the definition of putt was (wondering if it was still a putt if the ball is off the putting green).  I could not find a definition of putt.  It mattered because Decision 16-1a/15 talks about getting the committee to repair a green when there is a mushroom on the players line when he is putting, but it didn't specify whether the player was on the green or not.  Unlike Decision 16-1c/3, which specified that the player's ball was on the green.  So what makes a putt a putt?  The nature of the stroke or the position of the ball.  If the latter then wasn't the repair of the indentation some kind of line of sight relief, in effect?  

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