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Provisional Ball Question - Page 2

post #19 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post

As has been pointed out, the rules allow for a provisional ball to be played for a ball lost or OB.

It's pretty clear to me that this rule should be changed to also include an unplayable ball. Why stop with lost or OB, if the rule itself says it's to save time. 

Huh?

First, how in the world could you even suspect that your ball might be unplayable before you actually get there to look at it?

Second, with very few exceptions, why would you take a stroke and distance penalty for an unplayable ball, when less penal options will likely be available?

b3_huh.gif
post #20 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

As has been pointed out, the rules allow for a provisional ball to be played for a ball lost or OB.

 

It's pretty clear to me that this rule should be changed to also include an unplayable ball. Why stop with lost or OB, if the rule itself says it's to save time. 

 

Tell us how you'd like that to work. You hit a ball where? Then what?

post #21 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post

Tell us how you'd like that to work. You hit a ball where? Then what?

I don't want to speak for the guy with the idea. But let's say you spray one off the tee to the right, and it goes 8' deep into the woods on the right.

Instead of going up there, finding the ball 8' deep in the woods with absolutely no chance to hack it out, and having to drive back to the tee to hit an unplayable lie stroke and distance, he is saying a provisional ball option should be included for unplayable lie scenarios as well.
post #22 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post

I don't want to speak for the guy with the idea. But let's say you spray one off the tee to the right, and it goes 8' deep into the woods on the right.

Instead of going up there, finding the ball 8' deep in the woods with absolutely no chance to hack it out, and having to drive back to the tee to hit an unplayable lie stroke and distance, he is saying a provisional ball option should be included for unplayable lie scenarios as well.

You can't do that for the same reason you can't play a provisional for a ball that might be lost in a hazard. There are multiple options for proceeding with an unplayable ball.....stroke and distance being only one of them. You have to determine which option to use before having the benefit of seeing the result of your "provisional". Bottom line, you cannot have two balls in play at the same time and then get to choose which you like better.

If you hit it into the woods, you can should certainly play a provisional for a possible lost ball, but once you find that ball, it remains in play and the provisional is abandoned.
post #23 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

You can't do that for the same reason you can't play a provisional for a ball that might be lost in a hazard. There are multiple options for proceeding with an unplayable ball.....stroke and distance being only one of them. You have to determine which option to use before having the benefit of seeing the result of your "provisional". Bottom line, you cannot have two balls in play at the same time and then get to choose which you like better.

If you hit it into the woods, you can should certainly play a provisional for a possible lost ball, but once you find that ball, it remains in play and the provisional is abandoned.

Yeah. I now understand the reasoning of not allowing the golfer to choose between 2 balls in play. It makes perfect sense.
post #24 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post

I don't want to speak for the guy with the idea. But let's say you spray one off the tee to the right, and it goes 8' deep into the woods on the right.

Instead of going up there, finding the ball 8' deep in the woods with absolutely no chance to hack it out, and having to drive back to the tee to hit an unplayable lie stroke and distance, he is saying a provisional ball option should be included for unplayable lie scenarios as well.

You can't do that for the same reason you can't play a provisional for a ball that might be lost in a hazard. There are multiple options for proceeding with an unplayable ball.....stroke and distance being only one of them. You have to determine which option to use before having the benefit of seeing the result of your "provisional". Bottom line, you cannot have two balls in play at the same time and then get to choose which you like better.

If you hit it into the woods, you can should certainly play a provisional for a possible lost ball, but once you find that ball, it remains in play and the provisional is abandoned.

 

Spot on, as usual. Thanks, David, for saving me all of that typing. 

:-)

post #25 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

As has been pointed out, the rules allow for a provisional ball to be played for a ball lost or OB.

 

It's pretty clear to me that this rule should be changed to also include an unplayable ball. Why stop with lost or OB, if the rule itself says it's to save time. 

 

Because you have other procedural options for a ball unplayable which you don't have for the other two conditions.  That is why there is no provisional ball allowed for a ball in a water hazard too.  The provisional ball is only allowed in situations where the only option is stroke and distance.

 

Edit:  Oops... I didn't see that there was another page with the answer already posted.  David has it right.  At least we all agree on this one. 

post #26 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Tell us how you'd like that to work. You hit a ball where? Then what?

The purpose is to save time which is the intent of this rule and a big concern which the USGA right now.

 

Do I really need to explain how it works? It's a provisional.

 

After you play a provisional, If you should find your ball and it is unplayable, then you have the same 3 options, one of them would be to use the provisional.

post #27 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

The purpose is to save time which is the intent of this rule and a big concern which the USGA right now.

 

Do I really need to explain how it works? It's a provisional.

 

After you play a provisional, If you should find your ball and it is unplayable, then you have the same 3 options, one of them would be to use the provisional.

 

 

Which means that you would have two balls in play at the same time that you would get to choose between.

 

Nope.   :no:

post #28 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Tell us how you'd like that to work. You hit a ball where? Then what?

The purpose is to save time which is the intent of this rule and a big concern which the USGA right now.

 

Do I really need to explain how it works? It's a provisional.

 

After you play a provisional, If you should find your ball and it is unplayable, then you have the same 3 options, one of them would be to use the provisional.

 

The rules never give you a choice between multiple balls in play, only a choice of options as to how to proceed.  By your suggestion, that ideal would be ignored.  Never going to happen.

post #29 of 89
:-OQuote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Tell us how you'd like that to work. You hit a ball where? Then what?

The purpose is to save time which is the intent of this rule and a big concern which the USGA right now.

 

Do I really need to explain how it works? It's a provisional.

 

After you play a provisional, If you should find your ball and it is unplayable, then you have the same 3 options, one of them would be to use the provisional.

 

The rules never give you a choice between multiple balls in play, only a choice of options as to how to proceed.  By your suggestion, that ideal would be ignored.  Never going to happen.

 

Tufts would roll over in his grave.  :-O 

post #30 of 89

I understand what the rules currently are. In order to help speed up play, you would need to make changes to the rules.

 

Playing a provisional doesn't put 2 balls in play. Currently if you play a provisional but your original ball is found, the provisional is voided, because it was played for a lost or OB ball. The rule change, would allow the player, if the original ball is found and unplayable, to seek relief by either using the provisional, 2 club drop, or line to pin, until this is decided there is only one ball in play.

 

This is a time saver and in the majority of situations would not provide any advantage to the player when compared to the current rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

post #31 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

I understand what the rules currently are. In order to help speed up play, you would need to make changes to the rules.

 

Playing a provisional doesn't put 2 balls in play. Currently if you play a provisional but your original ball is found, the provisional is voided, because it was played for a lost or OB ball. The rule change, would allow the player, if the original ball is found and unplayable, to seek relief by either using the provisional, 2 club drop, or line to pin, until this is decided there is only one ball in play.

 

This is a time saver and in the majority of situations would not provide any advantage to the player when compared to the current rules.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your proposal would give the player a choice between two balls.  It doesn't matter if they are both in play at the same time, they both have the potential to be the ball in play (you know the lie and situation for both, and that can influence your decision), and that is a scenario which the rules abhor.  It allows you weigh your options based on things like current lie, potential drop areas vs. lying 3 in the fairway, etc.  It diverges too far from the basic principle of playing one ball from tee to hole.  

 
It's pretty rare that an unplayable lie offers no choice but to return to the previous spot (I have never in 40 years had to take the stroke and distance penalty under Rule 28).  The pace of play improvement for those rare occurrences would be insignificant when compared to the compromise in the principles of the game.
post #32 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

I understand what the rules currently are. In order to help speed up play, you would need to make changes to the rules.

 

Playing a provisional doesn't put 2 balls in play. Currently if you play a provisional but your original ball is found, the provisional is voided, because it was played for a lost or OB ball. The rule change, would allow the player, if the original ball is found and unplayable, to seek relief by either using the provisional, 2 club drop, or line to pin, until this is decided there is only one ball in play.

 

This is a time saver and in the majority of situations would not provide any advantage to the player when compared to the current rules.

 

 

 

You're right, playing a provisional doesn't put 2 balls into play.  Under your proposal, you would have 2 balls in play......because while lost/OB are defined and non-subjective, whether or not a ball is "unplayable" is completely up to the player.  Until you declare it as such, you have the option of playing that ball or your second ball.

 

As Fourputt said, not only would you be changing a simple rule, but you'd be changing one of the core ideals of the game itself by allowing the player to choose between two balls which have already played, and are both found within bounds.  I'm all for speeding up pace of play, but it's not necessary (or appropriate) to do it by changing the game itself.

 

 

 

Edited to add that as is often the case, Fourputt beat me to it.....

post #33 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

I understand what the rules currently are. In order to help speed up play, you would need to make changes to the rules.

 

Playing a provisional doesn't put 2 balls in play. Currently if you play a provisional but your original ball is found, the provisional is voided, because it was played for a lost or OB ball. The rule change, would allow the player, if the original ball is found and unplayable, to seek relief by either using the provisional, 2 club drop, or line to pin, until this is decided there is only one ball in play.

 

This is a time saver and in the majority of situations would not provide any advantage to the player when compared to the current rules.

 

Yes it does (using your rules change). Please listen to what people are saying to you.

post #34 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Your proposal would give the player a choice between two balls.  It doesn't matter if they are both in play at the same time, they both have the potential to be the ball in play (you know the lie and situation for both, and that can influence your decision), and that is a scenario which the rules abhor.  It allows you weigh your options based on things like current lie, potential drop areas vs. lying 3 in the fairway, etc.  It diverges too far from the basic principle of playing one ball from tee to hole.  

 
It's pretty rare that an unplayable lie offers no choice but to return to the previous spot (I have never in 40 years had to take the stroke and distance penalty under Rule 28).  The pace of play improvement for those rare occurrences would be insignificant when compared to the compromise in the principles of the game.

 

The current rules don't "abhor" this scenario. You have 3 relief options for an unplayable lie. Each option allows you to evaluate the best lie, distance, angle to the pin, number of strokes, etc etc.

This proposal does not change anything already available to a player.

 

Please provide a situation that would give a player an advantage over the current rules?

post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

 

The current rules don't "abhor" this scenario. You have 3 relief options for an unplayable lie. Each option allows you to evaluate the best lie, distance, angle to the pin, number of strokes, etc etc.

This proposal does not change anything already available to a player.

 

Please provide a situation that would give a player an advantage over the current rules?

 

 

Easy.

 

200 yard par 3 over water.  Deepish, but not impossible rough in front of the tees.  I top one 30 yards off the tee into the rough.  I take my "possible unplayable" and stuff it.  Tap in 4.

 

You tell me.  Under your proposal, do you opt to play your second shot from an iffy lie 170 yards over water hoping for a miracle up and down 3, or do you take your 4 and run to the next hole?  I know what I do......

post #36 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

As has been pointed out, the rules allow for a provisional ball to be played for a ball lost or OB.

 

It's pretty clear to me that this rule should be changed to also include an unplayable ball. Why stop with lost or OB, if the rule itself says it's to save time. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by szaino View Post
 

 

The current rules don't "abhor" this scenario. You have 3 relief options for an unplayable lie. Each option allows you to evaluate the best lie, distance, angle to the pin, number of strokes, etc etc.

This proposal does not change anything already available to a player.

 

Please provide a situation that would give a player an advantage over the current rules?

 

Because in your scenario you already know what the result will be if you choose the stroke and distance option.  In the current rules, if you choose the stroke and distance option you do not know how your second tee shot is going to work out.  There is a big difference between choosing options, one of which is going back and hitting anew shot and choosing options one of which is paying that "provisional" ball you nailed right down the middle.  It is the uncertainty of hitting a new shot and the certainty of the shot you already hit that makes the (very big, IMO) difference.

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Real Rules:  Your ball is deep in the woods.  You decide that it might take you 2 shots to get out and still will only be 160 yards from the tee,  So you figure, "I can be out in the fairway lying 3 but only 160 yards off the tee.  I'm better off taking stroke and distance when I will a also be lying 3 but hopefully much further than 160 yards from the tee.''"

 

Your rules:  Now after hitting the ball into the woods you play a "provisional.  You top it 20 yards.  Proceed to top the next 3 shots which takes you to the place where you original ball is.  Now you think:  It may take me 2 to get out but then I'll be lying 3 and with the provisional I am lying 4.  I'm better off taking the drop and getting out of the woods by playing the original ball.

 

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Real Rules:  Same as above.  But when you retee you hit a weak slice, only 140 yards.  Now you wish you had played the original ball but it is too late

 

Your rules:  You hit the provisional and nail it 260 yards from the tee right down the middle.  Now it is a no brainer to play the provisional, since lying the same 3 as in the original rules you have picked up 100 yards in distance.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

They may change the rules from time to time but they do not change the basic principles underlying the rules.  And one of those fundamental principles is the player never gets to choose which of 2 balls will be in play.

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