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Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do? - Page 9

Poll Results: Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

 
  • 36% (17)
    Run back and play your shot again
  • 52% (24)
    Take a drop with a stroke penalty
  • 10% (5)
    Take a free drop (someone must have picked it up, right?)
46 Total Votes  
post #145 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

More on topic, up here, where guys who spray the ball should be averaging 4 to 6+ provisional balls per round, I see many players rarely utilize the option.  They end up with at least 1 or 2 "unexpected" lost balls per round and never go back to the tee.

 

So? Good for them. If they want to play a game resembling golf, more power to 'em. That doesn't mean we need to change the Rules of Golf to suit them. If that were your position, the speed limits would be about 10 MPH faster than what they say everywhere, because that's the speed everyone drives, right? Except then everyone would drive even faster, just as they'd abuse your new rules too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

The problem is that the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot.

 

Sure it does. It's an unfinished hole.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

It sees an unfinished hole as one in which a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded.

 

Where does it say "usually only a stroke or two"?

 

And Fourputt, since you know you can concede a hole at any point in time, if you pump three balls OB and concede the hole to your opponent, what is HE to do? Does what he is to do change if he pumped a ball OB himself already? And what are you to do? In that case, both of you have played the hole entirely under the rules, and neither of you have left the tee!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

The principles of the rules state that you play your ball from tee to hole.  Not doing so is not following the principles of the rules, and thus it isn't really covered by the handicap manual, unless you use the clause:

 

You all are agreeing that this doesn't apply.  I disagree.  I'm going to be traveling in about a half hour, so I won't be a further participant before Sunday at the soonest.  I wish you all good luck trying to find a consensus.

 

This is precisely the point at which you go wrong.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

I just reread the relevant section of the manual for the dozenth time just to make sure I wasn't missing something. Here's what it says, plainly and simply:

 

 

Quote:
4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes
 
A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score.

 

I don't see how there's any way to interpret that other than as long as you have been playing under the principles of the rules prior to the point where you stop playing the hole, it's an unfinished hole.

 

In fact, note that it even makes a distinction between conceding a stroke and otherwise not completing a hole. (I bolded the "or" to highlight that.)  So I also can't see how you can say that the manual states that it's an unfinished hole only when "a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded". The manual clearly indicates there are other ways to have an unfinished hole.

 

Game, set, and match IMO.

post #146 of 160

I often have unfinished holes and unplayed holes. Pretty simple for me.

 

We often have unplayed holes because of lightning or simply skipping a hole to avoid a backup. Only correct way to score for bets and handicap is par plus handicap strokes. Yes, we use those handicapped scores for bets too but we bet very small money. If you play at least 13 holes and get called off the course, you handicap out and post the score (7 hole to post a 9-hole score). No option. Play 12, no posting. Play 13, post.

 

Since we play matchplay, holes are conceded whenever someone wishes to surrender. Blast a few OB and your opponent lies two on the green, you can pick up and concede the hole. The OB guy scores most likely score (up to his max for handicap purposes) and we usually let a guy putting for birdie putt out. If he does not putt out (for example if we have fallen off pace of play), he takes most likely score too. 

 

In matchplay, not letting a guy pick up when he is out of the hole is, to me, akin to batting in the bottom of the ninth when you already won the baseball game. It may be done by little kids on the playground but not by ball players. When the hole is lost, the hole's over. Go to the next hole. There is no reason to make a guy putt out for his 10 when you are in with four. I was told by caddies in Scotland that one reason Americans play so slowly, by Scottish caddie standards, is that Americans keep playing when the hole is over.

 

The only time I think scoring is a question between the two ways to score holes that were not played to completion, would be on a long hole where you've hit your drive well, in play, and then you are called off the hole because of weather. IMO, there is a lot of golf left to play on that hole and "most likely" score is a wild guess. Yet, you can not increase your certainty by playing if there is lightning. I'd like to think that par is my most likely score when lying one and 270 out on a par 5. But alas, I'm looking at anything from 4-7 even from the middle of the fairway. So, I'd handicap that hole too. Pretty rare that you start a hole yet can't play enough to have a good guess at a most likely score.

post #147 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 
I don't see how you can state "the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot".  Just because it doesn't happen to use that as an example doesn't mean it wasn't contemplated.

 

And you can't use the argument that "not playing your ball from tee to hole is not following the principle of the rules", because you're not playing the ball from tee to hole when you concede putts, yet it's universally accepted to count that as an unfinished hole, not a hole "not played under the principles of the rules". So you shoot your own argument in the foot when you try to use the "not played under the principles of the rules" clause to any situation where you don't hole out, because that clearly doesn't apply to the conceded putt scenario.

 

And the other problem with saying "the manual doesn't contemplate picking up after the tee shot" is that if that were true, then the manual would need to provide some definition of what *was* contemplated. I.e., at what point have you played "enough" of the hole that you can call it unfinished and not unplayed? That's been asked several times in this thread, and in my question to the USGA hotline, and no one has given any kind of answer.

 

I just reread the relevant section of the manual for the dozenth time just to make sure I wasn't missing something. Here's what it says, plainly and simply:

 

Quote:
4-1. Unfinished Holes and Conceded Strokes
 
A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the most likely score.

 

I don't see how there's any way to interpret that other than as long as you have been playing under the principles of the rules prior to the point where you stop playing the hole, it's an unfinished hole.

 

In fact, note that it even makes a distinction between conceding a stroke and otherwise not completing a hole. (I bolded the "or" to highlight that.)  So I also can't see how you can say that the manual states that it's an unfinished hole only when "a certain part of the hole (usually only a stroke or two) is conceded". The manual clearly indicates there are other ways to have an unfinished hole.

 

4-1 applies if you pick up  and put the ball in your pocket.  Then 4-2 states that the treatment is different if instead you make an illegal drop and complete the hole, but not by the rules.  Tell me how YOU reconcile those two similar actions which the manual appears to view quite differently?

post #148 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Yeah, in line with the example Erik gave of a guy who pumps 2 or 3 balls OB and then quits, I was going more for something like this.  When you quit far enough away from the hole that you really have no idea what your score would have been.  A 1 foot gimme doesn't fall into that category.

 

Heck, even I have on occasion hit 2 balls OB then quit.  There is something wrong with my swing or head right then and there is really no reason to keep wasting $4 balls, IMO.  Just curse a couple of times, put the club away, mark down ESC, and head to the next hole. :)

 

When you pump a couple out of bounds you really have no idea what your score should have been, but you are pretty sure that it isn't par plus handicap pops.  There is no way, on a par 4 on which I get no pop, I should be hitting my 5th shot, unexpectedly lose the ball (MORE penalty strokes), and have posting a 4 be the correct thing to do.

 

I still think that once you start a hole but something happens so you have no ball to play you haven't finished the hole. No matter if you decide to drop a ball somewhere and play it in.  THAT is not finishing the hole, that is practicing on the course.

 

There has to be an element of common sense involved.

 

I had a situation earlier in the year when I was playing match play.  I hit my drive into a ditch and removed a couple of twigs before I realized it was marked as a lateral hazard.  As soon as I realized that I knew I lost the hole right then and there, under the match play penalty under Rule 23-1.  I played out the hole and, ignoring any penalty strokes had a 6.  My ESC on the hole was 7.  The question then arose what to post for handicap purposes.  I scored 6 on the hole, but infringed on the rules, but the 2-stroke penalty is a stroke play penalty and I was playing match play. I finished the hole so it wasn't an unfinished hole.  It sounds like under 4-putt's interpretation this might be a hole not played under the rules, and therefore I should have posted a 5, par 4 plus one pop.  Or I could post 6 as that was my actual score, since there are no penalty strokes for that infringement under match play.  Or I could post 7 based on a score of 8 (including the 2 stroke penalty even though I was playing match play) and an ESC adjustment of 1 stroke.  I was pretty sure I knew what was right but I emailed the USGA to make sure.

 

So what was the right thing to post on that hole?

post #149 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post

When you pump a couple out of bounds you really have no idea what your score should have been, but you are pretty sure that it isn't par plus handicap pops.  There is no way, on a par 4 on which I get no pop, I should be hitting my 5th shot, unexpectedly lose the ball (MORE penalty strokes), and have posting a 4 be the correct thing to do.

I still think that once you start a hole but something happens so you have no ball to play you haven't finished the hole. No matter if you decide to drop a ball somewhere and play it in.  THAT is not finishing the hole, that is practicing on the course.

There has to be an element of common sense involved.

I had a situation earlier in the year when I was playing match play.  I hit my drive into a ditch and removed a couple of twigs before I realized it was marked as a lateral hazard.  As soon as I realized that I knew I lost the hole right then and there, under the match play penalty under Rule 23-1.  I played out the hole and, ignoring any penalty strokes had a 6.  My ESC on the hole was 7.  The question then arose what to post for handicap purposes.  I scored 6 on the hole, but infringed on the rules, but the 2-stroke penalty is a stroke play penalty and I was playing match play. I finished the hole so it wasn't an unfinished hole.  It sounds like under 4-putt's interpretation this might be a hole not played under the rules, and therefore I should have posted a 5, par 4 plus one pop.  Or I could post 6 as that was my actual score, since there are no penalty strokes for that infringement under match play.  Or I could post 7 based on a score of 8 (including the 2 stroke penalty even though I was playing match play) and an ESC adjustment of 1 stroke.  I was pretty sure I knew what was right but I emailed the USGA to make sure.

So what was the right thing to post on that hole?
I would assume 7?? Although I would've just posted a 6.
post #150 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

4-1 applies if you pick up and put the ball in your pocket.

 

Agreed, but not sure what point you're making. In the scenario that we've been discussing in this thread (lost tee shot with no provisional, and you don't go back to the tee), my contention is that not playing out the hole at that point is the equivalent of picking up and putting the ball in your pocket. If you agree with that, then it seems you've changed your stance. If you don't agree with that, then I'm still not sure why.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

Then 4-2 states that the treatment is different if instead you make an illegal drop and complete the hole, but not by the rules.  Tell me how YOU reconcile those two similar actions which the manual appears to view quite differently?

 

How did an illegal drop creep into this discussion?  Are you referring to my email to USGA, where I asked about playing a ball from the area where the original ball was lost? If so, I'd be playing that ball in order to estimate as accurately as possible what my most likely score would be, not to actually get a score under the rules of golf.  I figure that holing out and adding 2 strokes to the total is going to be a heck of a lot closer to my most likely score than taking par plus would be, since doing the latter totally discounts the stroke and distance I've already accumulated.

 

But for the sake of discussion, let's say I agreed that holing out from a random spot and adding two is not an option. (Turtleback, you make a good point about that being practice on the course.) Even in that case, the fact remains that I've started the hole. It is not an unplayed hole, and it's not a hole "not played under the principles of the rules of golf", since I stopped playing before doing anything illegal. It's clearly (in my mind) an unfinished hole, therefore 4-1 should apply.

post #151 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

Agreed, but not sure what point you're making. In the scenario that we've been discussing in this thread (lost tee shot with no provisional, and you don't go back to the tee), my contention is that not playing out the hole at that point is the equivalent of picking up and putting the ball in your pocket. If you agree with that, then it seems you've changed your stance. If you don't agree with that, then I'm still not sure why.

 

 

 

This.  Essentially what has happened is that you do not have a ball in play and you randomly drop a ball and play in with it.  How that is finishing the hole is beyond me.

post #152 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

I played 9 in 53 minutes last week. And I was hitting multiple balls and practicing bunker shots.
Did you carry, push or drive? I carry, and that would be a heck of a workout.
post #153 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

Agreed, but not sure what point you're making. In the scenario that we've been discussing in this thread (lost tee shot with no provisional, and you don't go back to the tee), my contention is that not playing out the hole at that point is the equivalent of picking up and putting the ball in your pocket. If you agree with that, then it seems you've changed your stance. If you don't agree with that, then I'm still not sure why.

This.  Essentially what has happened is that you do not have a ball in play and you randomly drop a ball and play in with it.  How that is finishing the hole is beyond me.

 

What's the "This" that you're agreeing with? I'm confused because what you quoted me saying doesn't seem to relate to what you wrote. (There's nothing about "randomly dropping a ball" or "finishing the hole" in what you quoted.)

post #154 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

What's the "This" that you're agreeing with? I'm confused because what you quoted me saying doesn't seem to relate to what you wrote. (There's nothing about "randomly dropping a ball" or "finishing the hole" in what you quoted.)

 

Maybe I was going too fast and misread your post.  I withdraw the "This".

 

I'm talking about the situation that started the thread and how it is treated for posting purposes.  I'm talking about a situation where a ball is (unexpectedly or otherwise) lost when no provisional is played and the player drops a ball and plays out the hole with that ball.  IMO this is not a hole not played under the principles of the rules (which would be par plus pop(s)), it is a hole that is not finished (which would be most likely score - including the penalty strokes).  For the reason I stated, that there is no ball is play and the player just randomly dropped a ball and played in with it.  

post #155 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

What's the "This" that you're agreeing with? I'm confused because what you quoted me saying doesn't seem to relate to what you wrote. (There's nothing about "randomly dropping a ball" or "finishing the hole" in what you quoted.)

 

Maybe I was going too fast and misread your post.  I withdraw the "This".

 

I'm talking about the situation that started the thread and how it is treated for posting purposes.  I'm talking about a situation where a ball is (unexpectedly or otherwise) lost when no provisional is played and the player drops a ball and plays out the hole with that ball.  IMO this is not a hole not played under the principles of the rules (which would be par plus pop(s)), it is a hole that is not finished (which would be most likely score - including the penalty strokes).  For the reason I stated, that there is no ball is play and the player just randomly dropped a ball and played in with it.  

 

Ah, gotcha. Then I'd say we're in agreement for the most part, the exception being I think any estimation is going to be more accurate if you actually play a ball. But I now understand the objection that you and Fourputt have to that.

post #156 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by sacm3bill View Post
 

 

Ah, gotcha. Then I'd say we're in agreement for the most part, the exception being I think any estimation is going to be more accurate if you actually play a ball. But I now understand the objection that you and Fourputt have to that.

 

Actually I think that Fourputt and I are on opposite sides.  I believe that he is in the par plus pops camp, reasoning that it is a hole not played under the principles of the rules.  And I will add that when I determine the most likely I am strongly influenced by the score I shot with the dropped ball - although this would only come up in the first place a small handful of times in the course of a season.  So I am really close to you on this one.

post #157 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

 

Actually I think that Fourputt and I are on opposite sides.  I believe that he is in the par plus pops camp, reasoning that it is a hole not played under the principles of the rules.  And I will add that when I determine the most likely I am strongly influenced by the score I shot with the dropped ball - although this would only come up in the first place a small handful of times in the course of a season.  So I am really close to you on this one.

 

I realize that you should post something for handicap purposes (if you keep one) but for bragging around the clubhouse about a score purposes I'm in the camp that you don't even have a score once you abandon the rules on a hole.

 

No way to know exactly how many balls might have been hit OB. Maybe they never reach the fairway.

 

I was playing from the tips one time on a very windy day (when I had no business playing from there) and on one hole with a long forced carry it took me 4 tries to reach the fairway. I think if the wind had been just a little stronger I would have never finished the hole.

post #158 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

 

I realize that you should post something for handicap purposes (if you keep one) but for bragging around the clubhouse about a score purposes I'm in the camp that you don't even have a score once you abandon the rules on a hole.

 

Nobody's talking about bragging around the clubhouse. They're talking about posting for handicap.

post #159 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Nobody's talking about bragging around the clubhouse. They're talking about posting for handicap.

 

I realize that....But I know plenty of people that talk about scores that aren't scores.

post #160 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

 

I realize that....But I know plenty of people that talk about scores that aren't scores.

 

Okay, but that's not the topic here, so let's just stick to that, please.

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