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Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do? - Page 5

Poll Results: Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

 
  • 36% (17)
    Run back and play your shot again
  • 52% (24)
    Take a drop with a stroke penalty
  • 10% (5)
    Take a free drop (someone must have picked it up, right?)
46 Total Votes  
post #73 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

OK, we've established the correct way to play a ball when it was close to the woods or trouble, and very likely went OB.

 

Now, the situation that I've been involved in a bunch of times - say you hit a PERFECT drive - right down the pipe.    100% chance that it's on the fairway.   You spend 5 minutes & can't find it.     Could have plugged, could be under a divot or leaf, could be who knows where.    Due to the certainty that it was a good shot & you'd find it if you had the course to yourself & could spend an hour looking for it ... what would a properly schooled golfer do in this situation (lets assume we're playing for hcp or in a tournament) ??

 

Thanks -

 

This happened to me in a qualifier earlier this year.  Severe downhill sloping par 5, slightly downwind.  I hit maybe the best drive of my life, center of a fairway that turns left at about the 340 mark and going through would run into a hazard at about the 360 mark.  I never found the ball so I don't know how far I hit it.  I was so pissed that after searching for 3-4 minutes in every part of the fairway and both sides of rough, and the hazard, that I simply DQ'd myself from the tournament.  I should have had an eagle look (or so I thought), and instead I would have had to re-tee or assume it went into the hazard (like 360 yards out), but since I didn't know for sure, I ruled out that option.

post #74 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

This happened to me in a qualifier earlier this year.  Severe downhill sloping par 5, slightly downwind.  I hit maybe the best drive of my life, center of a fairway that turns left at about the 340 mark and going through would run into a hazard at about the 360 mark.  I never found the ball so I don't know how far I hit it.  I was so pissed that after searching for 3-4 minutes in every part of the fairway and both sides of rough, and the hazard, that I simply DQ'd myself from the tournament.  I should have had an eagle look (or so I thought), and instead I would have had to re-tee or assume it went into the hazard (like 360 yards out), but since I didn't know for sure, I ruled out that option.

 

 

Golf can be a brutally cruel game at times.    Absolutely nothing worse than losing a ball on a perfectly struck shot & having to take the full penalty ...

post #75 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

This happened to me in a qualifier earlier this year.  Severe downhill sloping par 5, slightly downwind.  I hit maybe the best drive of my life, center of a fairway that turns left at about the 340 mark and going through would run into a hazard at about the 360 mark.  I never found the ball so I don't know how far I hit it.  I was so pissed that after searching for 3-4 minutes in every part of the fairway and both sides of rough, and the hazard, that I simply DQ'd myself from the tournament.  I should have had an eagle look (or so I thought), and instead I would have had to re-tee or assume it went into the hazard (like 360 yards out), but since I didn't know for sure, I ruled out that option.

Why DQ yourself? Your ball is lost. Go back and hit your third shot.

post #76 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

Why DQ yourself? Your ball is lost. Go back and hit your third shot.

 

I didn't want to.  This was already a friggin 6 hour tournament.  I was already pissed about that, then to lose my best drive of the day, spend minutes searching for it and not find it, just crushed me.  Only the top guy advanced in this qualifier, and that pretty much ruined any chance I had.  I needed to birdie that hole at worst to keep up with the sandbaggers.

 

I don't like going back to the tee and slowing down a 6 hour round.  If I thought there were even a 15% chance it was lost, I would have hit a provisional.

post #77 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

I didn't want to.  This was already a friggin 6 hour tournament.  I was already pissed about that, then to lose my best drive of the day, spend minutes searching for it and not find it, just crushed me.  Only the top guy advanced in this qualifier, and that pretty much ruined any chance I had.  I needed to birdie that hole at worst to keep up with the sandbaggers.

 

I don't like going back to the tee and slowing down a 6 hour round.  If I thought there were even a 15% chance it was lost, I would have hit a provisional.

I feel your pain. I'd have re-hit and hoped for a hole out from the fairway before surrendering. But maybe after such a long round...

 

But as to slowing down an already slow round, it is likely not so unless it was your last hole. When it is slow ahead of you, your returning to the tee is not going to change the pace of play. I don't understand why people think making the group behind you wait at point A is slower than making them wait at point B.

 

Again, bummer that you lost a "perfect" drive.

post #78 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

The math behind this statement baffles me.  Did the article elaborate a little bit I hope?  Two perfectly legal 5 minute searches adds 10 minutes to a round.  The selfish golfer who's not ready to play when it's his turn AND possesses a lengthy pre-shot routine can only "waste" an extra 10 seconds or so per shot before he's causing more of a slow down than the two legal searches.

 

I don't get it.

 

If you've been waiting on th group ahead of you you should be able to make up the time pretty quickly.  And if you haven't, then you should be waving the following group through when you are going to search that long..

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

What is "par+handicap"?  I don't understand that.  Meaning if you would get 1 pop on a hole due to course handicap, then you take par +1?  If you were getting two pops, you add 2?

 

That is the rule for a hole not played or not played under the principles of the Rules of Golf.  But this is for handicap posting only.  There is another handicap posting rule for when you start but do not finish a hole.  Under that rule you post the most likely score.  Personally I think this is the rule that should apply when a player hits a ball OB or lost and drops.  It just seems wrong to incur a stroke and distance penalty and then to post a par on the hole because don;t get a pop on that hole.  And I don't consider it sandbagging, because the player did, after, all, incur those penalty strokes.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

OK, we've established the correct way to play a ball when it was close to the woods or trouble, and very likely went OB.

 

Now, the situation that I've been involved in a bunch of times - say you hit a PERFECT drive - right down the pipe.    100% chance that it's on the fairway.   You spend 5 minutes & can't find it.     Could have plugged, could be under a divot or leaf, could be who knows where.    Due to the certainty that it was a good shot & you'd find it if you had the course to yourself & could spend an hour looking for it ... what would a properly schooled golfer do in this situation (lets assume we're playing for hcp or in a tournament) ??

 

Thanks -

 

In a tournament you have to go back and re-hit.  For a handicap round, if you don;t rehit and just drop then you have to figure out what to post.

post #79 of 160
I hate this! And it seems to happen alot. Especially when I hit a poor shot and look away to forget about it. Last tournament I played I hit it off the heel with my 3 wood and it was a low squirter down the left side. I get up there and could not find it and everyone agreed it should have been right there. Had to run back and retee. And a few years back when I was in 7th grade I tried to drive the first hole and hit a shot that I thought didnt go far cause it was one of those that goes up and just drops. But they didnt make me retee so I just dropped 30 yards short. And of course as I walk up, there it was hole high and laying on a sprinkler head :(
post #80 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I have noticed a few say they DRIVE back to the tee box (or where they last hit from)- Do any of you who re-hit NOT take a cart?  If you were walking, does your answer change?  Are you still going to be outta there so fast that the group waiting on you does not notice?  If the rules of golf gave you the option of dropping and adding 2 shots or going back and re-hitting with a 1 shot penalty, would you still go back?

In a medal comp I would walk back to the tee, calling the group behind through so that they can hit whilst I walk back. A stableford comp it would depend whether i had a shot or not, but probably would go back to rehit. Out of comp we would be playing stableford so just take my blob and move on, as I'm in the UK and not posting that round for handicap no big issue.

post #81 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

I agree with you.  I think that once you do not go back you have basically DQed yourself for the hole, so it is a hole you started but did not complete and therefore should post based on the most likely score including the penalty strokes, not the par plus handicap rule.

 

If the hole is finished, but not by the rules, then most likely score is not allowed.  Also, most likely score is intended for use when the probable outcome is predictable, as when the ball lies on or near the green when a hole is conceded in a match.  If you pick up after the tee shot, or finish the hole after an improper drop (i.e. you don't play by the rules), then the handicap manual says you mark par plus.  Taking ESC, or marking a double bogey for handicap purposes would be considered sandbagging.

post #82 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

What is "par+handicap"?  I don't understand that.  Meaning if you would get 1 pop on a hole due to course handicap, then you take par +1?  If you were getting two pops, you add 2?

 

That is the rule for a hole not played or not played under the principles of the Rules of Golf.  But this is for handicap posting only.  There is another handicap posting rule for when you start but do not finish a hole.  Under that rule you post the most likely score.  Personally I think this is the rule that should apply when a player hits a ball OB or lost and drops.  It just seems wrong to incur a stroke and distance penalty and then to post a par on the hole because don;t get a pop on that hole.  And I don't consider it sandbagging, because the player did, after, all, incur those penalty strokes.

 

But it doesn't really matter what we think should be - it's what the Handicap Manual allows that counts.  In this instance, it's more rigid than fudging on the rules of golf, because returning an improper score has nothing to do with pace of play.  This from the Manual:

 

Quote:
 

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Decision 4-2/1 and Section 5-2b.)

 

There is no allowance for personal opinion.

post #83 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

If the hole is finished, but not by the rules, then most likely score is not allowed.  Also, most likely score is intended for use when the probable outcome is predictable, as when the ball lies on or near the green when a hole is conceded in a match.  If you pick up after the tee shot, or finish the hole after an improper drop (i.e. you don't play by the rules), then the handicap manual says you mark par plus.  Taking ESC, or marking a double bogey for handicap purposes would be considered sandbagging.

 

While I have no real problem with how you do it - because it leans towards the cautious side of the scale, the "vanity-cap" side of the scale, if you will - I have to strongly disagree with your last statement.

 

Assuming it's a hole where you don't get a stroke, you are suggesting (well, not suggesting, but pointing out that the rules state, I get it) that if you hit a tee shot OB then mark "x" and move on to the next tee without hitting another shot then you are supposed to post par for that hole.

 

I fully admit that when it comes to handicaps, I lean toward the vanity end of that scale.  And by that, I mean that I always want my cap to be as low as possible.  I don't play in any net tournaments, and even if I did, I'd get no joy in "beating" somebody because I had an inflated handicap.  I don't, however, mean that I take gimmes, fluff lies, or ignore rules to help acheive that lower handicap.

 

That said, I would have a really hard time marking down a par for a hole where I'm standing on the tee hitting 3.  That just doesn't make any sense ... no matter what the rule says.

 

What I would do in this situation, what I have done, is like many others have said (assuming it's not an actual competition) just drop a ball and call my next shot my 4th.  Finishing out the hole this way and marking down that score is not sandbagging, it's logical.

 

Another option that I think would maybe split the difference between the two (still tipping sllightly towards vanity) would be to imagine that your second tee shot, were you to hit it, was the most perfect tee shot you have ever hit.  Then go drop out there in the middle of the fairway and play out the hole from there.  You couldn't possibly suggest that that was sandbagging, could you?  And, further, it would certainly be closer to accurate than marking down a par, wouldn't you say?

post #84 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlasgowsGreen View Post
 

 

Obviously this aint exactly R&A rules but no one wants to run back 200 yards to retake their shot.

 

 

 

Easy for you...I have to run back 400 yards when this happens!

post #85 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

 

Easy for you...I have to run back 400 yards when this happens!

 

Impressive EPS you have there. :-P

post #86 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

 

What I would do in this situation, what I have done, is like many others have said (assuming it's not an actual competition) just drop a ball and call my next shot my 4th.  Finishing out the hole this way and marking down that score is not sandbagging, it's logical.

 

Another option that I think would maybe split the difference between the two (still tipping sllightly towards vanity) would be to imagine that your second tee shot, were you to hit it, was the most perfect tee shot you have ever hit.  Then go drop out there in the middle of the fairway and play out the hole from there.  You couldn't possibly suggest that that was sandbagging, could you?  And, further, it would certainly be closer to accurate than marking down a par, wouldn't you say?

 

It's also directly against the rules for handicapping.  I ask you this - Does it happen to you so often that those scores are going to make a big swing in your handicap?  If not, then why not just follow the set policy?  I know that one or two pars or bogies attached to the lowest 10 of my last 20 (meaning a couple of holes out of 180 total) aren't going to have any significant effect, and in fact not all such scores are even going to make it into the lowest 10, so I just can't see it as being that important to the overall handicap calculation.  

 

My game has larger issues to concern me. :doh:

post #87 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

It's also directly against the rules for handicapping.

I don't know that I agree that it is against the rules. When you don't hit a 20 foot putt and assume that the most likely score would include a two putt, that hole is also not played in accordance with the rules, but you still mark down the most likely score.

And that's what you're not getting about the other side of the conversation… that you could be interpreting the rules on handicapping incorrectly.

What if a guy pumps three balls OB and then doesn't finish the hole? How close do you have to be to finishing a hole to be able to determine your most likely score? What about playing a hole badly and picking up at ESC score (friendly round no competition)?
post #88 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

It's also directly against the rules for handicapping.

I don't know that I agree that it is against the rules. When you don't hit a 20 foot putt and assume that the most likely score would include a two putt, that hole is also not played in accordance with the rules, but you still mark down the most likely score.

And that's what you're not getting about the other side of the conversation… that you could be interpreting the rules on handicapping incorrectly.

What if a guy pumps three balls OB and then doesn't finish the hole? How close do you have to be to finishing a hole to be able to determine your most likely score? What about playing a hole badly and picking up at ESC score (friendly round no competition)?

 

We had the same discussion on another site, and the same point was raised.  The question was put to the USGA and the response was exactly as I have stated it.  Using most likely score is intended for match play when a hole is conceded after play is well along.  The tee shot question was specifically asked, and the response was that the hole is marked as par plus with an "x" in front of the score.

post #89 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It's also directly against the rules for handicapping.  I ask you this - Does it happen to you so often that those scores are going to make a big swing in your handicap?  If not, then why not just follow the set policy?  I know that one or two pars or bogies attached to the lowest 10 of my last 20 (meaning a couple of holes out of 180 total) aren't going to have any significant effect, and in fact not all such scores are even going to make it into the lowest 10, so I just can't see it as being that important to the overall handicap calculation.

 

My game has larger issues to concern me. :doh:

 

Absolutely not.  But the bold is precisely why it seems to me like logic should override following the rules rigidly in this type of case.  It's not going to matter much anyway, so why not do what makes more sense?

 

Of course, its also why I don't have a problem with the way you do it.  I actually remember the last time this happened to me.  I hooked a drive into the left trees on a course I'd never played before and not until getting to my ball did I realize that the course had OB between this hole and the next.  (On course OB is a pet peeve of mine, and in this case it was extra silly because the holes were both straight.  I sort of get it when you are trying to discourage people from cutting the corner of doglegs over the top of other players, but on straight holes?  Gimme a break.)

 

Anywhos, the specifics of my story aren't relevant, what is relevant is that this happened 28 rounds ago.  I played it my way and the resulting ESC double was 1 stroke higher than I would have posted doing it your way.  It was one of my ten best so for a several months that extra stroke kept my handicap somewhere in the vicinity of 0.05-0.1 points higher than it could have been. ;)

post #90 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

Using most likely score is intended for match play when a hole is conceded after play is well along.

 

The fact of the matter is that people use it outside of match play, and you have not defined "well along." In my opinion "well along" certainly includes pumping three balls OB. Perhaps even one, particularly when "par plus handicap" has someone writing down a 4 on a hole they'll not par more than one out of ten thousand rounds hitting three from the tee.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

The tee shot question was specifically asked, and the response was that the hole is marked as par plus with an "x" in front of the score.

 

I don't agree, and will point out that you've not answered the questions I asked above. Here's another: how does a player know when he is "well along" in playing a hole?

 

BTW, I've talked to a few local reps from the USGA and West Penn GA about this and they side with me on this. Since the USGA's write-in "rules questions hotline" (my name) is not 100% likely to give a correct answer, that leaves us where we are now.

 

You play it your way, and I'll continue to have no problem with others playing it the other way (I of course don't enter scores for handicap anymore :P).

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