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Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do? - Page 6

Poll Results: Unexpected Lost Ball - No Provisional - What Do You Do?

 
  • 36% (17)
    Run back and play your shot again
  • 52% (24)
    Take a drop with a stroke penalty
  • 10% (5)
    Take a free drop (someone must have picked it up, right?)
46 Total Votes  
post #91 of 160

Reading the rule, I think Fourputt is right, as ridiculous as it might be.  

 

Imagine this scenario.  Standing the tee of an easy par 5 that I get no strokes on.  My ESC is 7.  I hit my tee shot and lose it, unexpectedly.  I have the following options:  (1) retee and hope to shoot a 6; (2) pick up and post a 7 under Rule 4-1; or (3) take a drop where it went out, without a penalty--and no matter what I shoot thereafter, even if its an 8--record a 5 under Rule 4-2. 

 

The same options would be present if you hit it OB.  Or anytime you commit a penalty, you could just not penalize yourself and take a par or bogey.  

post #92 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

... as ridiculous as it might be. 

Correct. ;)

post #93 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Correct. ;)

 

Just wait until MEFree gets a hold of this one...

post #94 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

Using most likely score is intended for match play when a hole is conceded after play is well along.

 

The fact of the matter is that people use it outside of match play, and you have not defined "well along." In my opinion "well along" certainly includes pumping three balls OB. Perhaps even one, particularly when "par plus handicap" has someone writing down a 4 on a hole they'll not par more than one out of ten thousand rounds hitting three from the tee.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

The tee shot question was specifically asked, and the response was that the hole is marked as par plus with an "x" in front of the score.

 

I don't agree, and will point out that you've not answered the questions I asked above. Here's another: how does a player know when he is "well along" in playing a hole?

 

BTW, I've talked to a few local reps from the USGA and West Penn GA about this and they side with me on this. Since the USGA's write-in "rules questions hotline" (my name) is not 100% likely to give a correct answer, that leaves us where we are now.

 

You play it your way, and I'll continue to have no problem with others playing it the other way (I of course don't enter scores for handicap anymore :P).

 

The point of the reply from the USGA was that it was not really reasonable to predict a most likely score when you are still in theory standing on the tee without a ball in play.  The manual is quite specific in stating that a hole not played under the principles of the rules is treated differently from an unfinished hole.  I will take their words at face value and not try to add my own interpretation.

post #95 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

The point of the reply from the USGA was that it was not really reasonable to predict a most likely score when you are still in theory standing on the tee without a ball in play.  The manual is quite specific in stating that a hole not played under the principles of the rules is treated differently from an unfinished hole.  I will take their words at face value and not try to add my own interpretation.

 

 

The only time I am impelled to finish a hole by the rules of golf that is going badly is if I am in a tournament. Otherwise, once I have reached my ESC number, that's what is going on the card anyway, so who cares?

 

And if somebody wants to post a lower score in a casual round because they haven't played the hole by the rules of golf, who cares? Reverse sandbagging only hurts the reverse sandbagger in those cases.

post #96 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

The point of the reply from the USGA was that it was not really reasonable to predict a most likely score when you are still in theory standing on the tee without a ball in play.  The manual is quite specific in stating that a hole not played under the principles of the rules is treated differently from an unfinished hole.  I will take their words at face value and not try to add my own interpretation.

 

Its hard to see how its more reasonable to assume par or bogey when you're standing on a tee, without a ball in play, and lying 2.  I understand that you're just repeating the USGA interpretation of the rule, it just seems strange.

 

I would think that your most likely score would be par +2 + any HC stroke you would get.

post #97 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post


The only time I am impelled to finish a hole by the rules of golf that is going badly is if I am in a tournament. Otherwise, once I have reached my ESC number, that's what is going on the card anyway, so who cares?

And if somebody wants to post a lower score in a casual round because they haven't played the hole by the rules of golf, who cares? Reverse sandbagging only hurts the reverse sandbagger in those cases.

A buddy of mine who I play with weekly has a tendency to hit 3 shots into the water or OB, pick up, put a 7 (ESC) on the card, then try to tell me he beat me at the end of the round.

Sorry, but just because 7 is your ESC max, it doesn't make it your score.
post #98 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post

A buddy of mine who I play with weekly has a tendency to hit 3 shots into the water or OB, pick up, put a 7 (ESC) on the card, then try to tell me he beat me at the end of the round.

Sorry, but just because 7 is your ESC max, it doesn't make it your score.

 

Hopefully he didn't mean he would use the 7 to best an opponent - but just for handicap purposes.  If you are playing someone and made a 10, then you made a 10.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

The manual is quite specific in stating that a hole not played under the principles of the rules is treated differently from an unfinished hole.  I will take their words at face value and not try to add my own interpretation.

 

Could there be some discrepancy in the terms?  Is an unfinished hole assumed to be a hole played under the rules of golf?  I'd think you had to finish it to be considered under the rules.  

 

But regardless, if Fourputt is right - and he seems to be - this is a terrible rule.  Any way to get it changed?  Hitting one OB and then putting down par really seems to defy logic.

post #99 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

 

Could there be some discrepancy in the terms?  Is an unfinished hole assumed to be a hole played under the rules of golf?  I'd think you had to finish it to be considered under the rules.  

 

I tried to think this through before, but every time I tried to interpret 4-1 as covering this lost ball scenario, I left 4-2 without any application.  The only thing I can come up with is that 4-2 (not played under the rules) applies if you decide before the hole that you are going to permit a mulligan or an illegal drop or some other rule violation.  If you start the hole under the rules, then 4-1 (unfinished) applies if you later break a rule.  That would be a logical distinction--if you decide before hand, then by applying 4-2 you're basically posting your most likely score if played under the rules--rather than what probably would have been a lower score (since we generally break the rules to lower our score).   But there really isn't any support for this in the language of the handbook.

 

 

I think the more likely scenario is that fourputt is just right.  We look at it as absurd because it allows you to post a lower score than you probably deserve.  But the field of any given competition is protected by the Rules of Golf--you're DQ'd if you don't go back to the tee.  The handicap is a means to protect future competitions.  So by making you post a better score, you are penalized in future matches.  It just seems backwards because we view our handicaps as achievements.  

post #100 of 160
What is the esc score?(highest score on a hole right) and is it this way with all handicap systems? Because mine Judy's asks for course, tees, and score.
post #101 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

 

Could there be some discrepancy in the terms?  Is an unfinished hole assumed to be a hole played under the rules of golf?  I'd think you had to finish it to be considered under the rules.  

 

I tried to think this through before, but every time I tried to interpret 4-1 as covering this lost ball scenario, I left 4-2 without any application.  The only thing I can come up with is that 4-2 (not played under the rules) applies if you decide before the hole that you are going to permit a mulligan or an illegal drop or some other rule violation.  If you start the hole under the rules, then 4-1 (unfinished) applies if you later break a rule.  That would be a logical distinction--if you decide before hand, then by applying 4-2 you're basically posting your most likely score if played under the rules--rather than what probably would have been a lower score (since we generally break the rules to lower our score).   But there really isn't any support for this in the language of the handbook.

 

 

I think the more likely scenario is that fourputt is just right.  We look at it as absurd because it allows you to post a lower score than you probably deserve.  But the field of any given competition is protected by the Rules of Golf--you're DQ'd if you don't go back to the tee.  The handicap is a means to protect future competitions.  So by making you post a better score, you are penalized in future matches.  It just seems backwards because we view our handicaps as achievements.  

 

I agree that this is the intent behind the way the system is set up. It may seem to be overdoing it, but it's really just an anti-sandbagging measure.

 

To those who argue against the letter of the manual, I did the same until I read the response from the USGA and reread that portion of the manual.  I just don't see any other way to interpret it, so I take it as it is written.  The key to calling a hole unfinished was the likelihood of being able to make a relatively accurate prediction as what your score might be if you had finished the hole vs. just making a wild guess.  I guess you all can do what you like, but I'm going to err on the side of conservatism.  It's mostly irrelevant for me now anyway, since I don't carry an official handicap any more, but I want my personally calculated one to be in keeping with the USGA guidelines, so that's how I'll do it.

post #102 of 160
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post


The only time I am impelled to finish a hole by the rules of golf that is going badly is if I am in a tournament. Otherwise, once I have reached my ESC number, that's what is going on the card anyway, so who cares?

And if somebody wants to post a lower score in a casual round because they haven't played the hole by the rules of golf, who cares? Reverse sandbagging only hurts the reverse sandbagger
in those cases.Originally Posted by MyrtleBeachGolf View Post


A buddy of mine who I play with weekly has a tendency to hit 3 shots into the water or OB, pick up, put a 7 (ESC) on the card, then try to tell me he beat me at the end of the round.

Sorry, but just because 7 is your ESC max, it doesn't make it your score.

 

LOL!! I always make sure to put a little x in the box next to the score so everybody knows that ain't what really happened.

post #103 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

I tried to think this through before, but every time I tried to interpret 4-1 as covering this lost ball scenario, I left 4-2 without any application.  The only thing I can come up with is that 4-2 (not played under the rules) applies if you decide before the hole that you are going to permit a mulligan or an illegal drop or some other rule violation.  If you start the hole under the rules, then 4-1 (unfinished) applies if you later break a rule.  That would be a logical distinction--if you decide before hand, then by applying 4-2 you're basically posting your most likely score if played under the rules--rather than what probably would have been a lower score (since we generally break the rules to lower our score).   But there really isn't any support for this in the language of the handbook.

 

 

I think the more likely scenario is that fourputt is just right.  We look at it as absurd because it allows you to post a lower score than you probably deserve.  But the field of any given competition is protected by the Rules of Golf--you're DQ'd if you don't go back to the tee.  The handicap is a means to protect future competitions.  So by making you post a better score, you are penalized in future matches.  It just seems backwards because we view our handicaps as achievements.

 

I have found that the scores I've posted that are littered with ESC numbers never count toward my handicap anyway (Best 10 of last 20).

 

But as far as the OP is concerned, I always go back to the tee. Hell, if it's a par 3 I can still make par with my next stroke. I am forever hopeful that the next shot will be in the hole.

post #104 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

...and is it this way with all handicap systems? Because mine Judy's asks for course, tees, and score.

 

What?

post #105 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

What?

sorry i meant just. Im asking if not all handicap systems make you plug in your score for your holes. Mine just askes for overall score so if you card a 10 you are screwed.

post #106 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

What is the esc score?(highest score on a hole right) and is it this way with all handicap systems? Because mine Judy's asks for course, tees, and score.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

What?

 

 

 

He's typing on an auto correct smart phone and it changed the word "justs" into the word "Judy's"

 

 

 

**Edit** he beat me to the answer ^^^^

post #107 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post
 

sorry i meant just. Im asking if not all handicap systems make you plug in your score for your holes. Mine just askes for overall score so if you card a 10 you are screwed.

 

Actually what happens it they expect you to subtract any ESC adjustments on your own.  

 

For example, when I plug my score into the NCGA website, it only asks for one number for total score.  So if I shot an 89, but I took an 8 on the first hole, then I would post an 88, as the highest I can take on any hole is a 7.

post #108 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post
 

sorry i meant just. Im asking if not all handicap systems make you plug in your score for your holes. Mine just askes for overall score so if you card a 10 you are screwed.

 

 

You should imput your scores for handicap hole-by-hole....and it will automatically adjust for ESC based on your handicap.  If you just put in an overall gross score and not post hole-by-hole scores...it will not make an ESC adjustment....and your handicap will be inaccurate.

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