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2013 NFL Football - Page 4

post #55 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

McNabb and Vick have had pretty good careers.

 

I disagree. Vick and McNabb get injured frequently, and they've yet to lead their teams to continued success (let alone a Super Bowl).

 

So again, we're back to Steve Young. :)

post #56 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I disagree. Vick and McNabb get injured frequently, and they've yet to lead their teams to continued success (let alone a Super Bowl).

 

So again, we're back to Steve Young. :)

 

Donovan McNabb took his team to the playoffs 7 times, including one Super Bowl appearance. If you don't think that's continued success, you're kidding yourself. Very very very few starting quarterbacks achieve that level of continued success. 

post #57 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

Donovan McNabb took his team to the playoffs 7 times, including one Super Bowl appearance. If you don't think that's continued success, you're kidding yourself. Very very very few starting quarterbacks achieve that level of continued success. 

 

How many Super Bowls did he win? So no, that's not continued success.

 

McNabb may be the closest, but he still doesn't cross the threshold in my book. And even if he did, okay, that's one guy since Steve Young… and far more flops.

post #58 of 1006
And Dan Marino didn't win any super bowls either, yet trent dilfer did.
post #59 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

How many Super Bowls did he win? So no, that's not continued success.

 

McNabb may be the closest, but he still doesn't cross the threshold in my book. And even if he did, okay, that's one guy since Steve Young… and far more flops.

 

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

And Dan Marino didn't win any super bowls either, yet trent dilfer did.

 

This.

 

Seriously? So what about a guy who wins two Super Bowls, but doesn't make the playoffs any other year? That's continued success? Donovan McNabb has continued success, period. You're being ridiculous.

 

That's like saying a golfer who wins 1-2 tournaments a year but only gets top 10s in majors doesn't have continued success in the PGA...

post #60 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

Seriously? So what about a guy who wins two Super Bowls, but doesn't make the playoffs any other year? That's continued success? Donovan McNabb has continued success, period. You're being ridiculous.

 

Nope. Not continued success. And even if it was, great, that's one QB in the last two decades.

post #61 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Nope. Not continued success. And even if it was, great, that's one QB in the last two decades.

 

If that's the case, then what, only Tom Brady has had continued success in the past 15 years? 

 
Brett Favre, no continued success. Same with Dan Marino. And Peyton Manning. 
post #62 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

If that's the case, then what, only Tom Brady has had continued success in the past 15 years? 

 
Brett Favre, no continued success. Same with Dan Marino. And Peyton Manning. 

 

Nobody else has won a Super Bowl except Tom Brady? Plenty of pocket passers have won Super Bowls.

 

I stand by what I said: the running QB has shown no signs of being "the future." In general, they under-perform. Flashes of greatness and brilliance, but on the whole, injuries and disappointment.

post #63 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Nobody else has won a Super Bowl except Tom Brady? Plenty of pocket passers have won Super Bowls.

 

I stand by what I said: the running QB has shown no signs of being "the future."

 

Right, but is one super bowl "continued success"? Again, Marino didn't have any, Peyton has only had one and has routinely blown it in the playoffs (not dogging him, I'm a big fan...just speaking the truth). 

 
I'm not arguing your point about "the future" just arguing about McNabb. Like I said, a very very small percentage of starting quarterbacks have achieved that level of consistent success. I'm not even a fan of the guy, just giving credit where it's due.
post #64 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

Right, but is one super bowl "continued success"?

 

It's part of it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

I'm not arguing your point about "the future" just arguing about McNabb. Like I said, a very very small percentage of starting quarterbacks have achieved that level of consistent success. I'm not even a fan of the guy, just giving credit where it's due.

 

Okay, you can have McNabb. I don't really care - my point stands regardless of which side of the success/not success ledger you put him on.

post #65 of 1006
As a life long Eagles fan, we've seen our fair share of running QB's (McNabb, Vick and don't forget Randall Cunningham!!!). I was a huge fan of all 3 and each of them had very successful careers as running QBs here and by any standard were considered top QB's when they were in there prime. The problem, though, their success can be short lived (at least by NFL standards). Injuries are definetely a factor but as they get older they also lose a step and the ability to make big plays with their legs. Eventually they're no longer the fastest guy on field and have to rely on their traditional QB skills so they're not nearly as dangerous. Having said that, outside of Manning and Brady, I wouldn't have traded those McNabb years for any other QB during those years. Yeh, never won the big one but not a lot of guys in his era could boast the same record especially taking into consideration the mediocre receivers he had for the better part of his career.
post #66 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It's part of it.

 

 

Okay, you can have McNabb. I don't really care - my point stands regardless of which side of the success/not success ledger you put him on.

 

Fair enough. 

 
I agree that the elite pocket passer will always be coveted over the flashy Vick/RG III type. If I'm picking a starter for a big game, Brady/Brees/Manning/Rogers all get the start over Vick/RG III/Wilson/Kaepernick. 
 
Anyway, looks like your Steelers might be joining my Browns in the AFC north basement. At least you guys won't be lonely. 
 
How do you feel about Tomlin? I've said since they hired him that he was a poor choice. He milked success from Cowher, and now that Cowher's guys are aging and moving on, they're starting to look the way I figured they would.
post #67 of 1006

Probably alone as raider fan but I do like what I'm seeing so far, more disciplined and focused team than years past, not expecting any division titles in next few years but I think Reggie McK has this team on right path. So much contract disasters to undo but I think this maybe the last year with lots of "dead money" counted against this years cap, I just hated the way Al Davis ran this team into the ground over the past decade.

post #68 of 1006
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Nobody else has won a Super Bowl except Tom Brady? Plenty of pocket passers have won Super Bowls.

I stand by what I said: the running QB has shown no signs of being "the future." In general, they under-perform. Flashes of greatness and brilliance, but on the whole, injuries and disappointment.
Yes, but there are a lot more starting qbs that are pocket passers. I mean, if the Super Bowl is what matters, and there have been 3 running qbs (Steve McNair counts, no?) in the Super Bowl in the last 18 years, that's, what, 8% success. In that same time frame has there been more or less than 8% of the games started by running qbs? I don't know. But that has to factor in, right?

Besides, I think using the Super Bowl as the metric is weak. Otherwise, you can come to the conclusion that Barry Sanders' aren't the wave if the future either. ;)
post #69 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Nobody else has won a Super Bowl except Tom Brady? Plenty of pocket passers have won Super Bowls.

 

 

 

 

But this current crop of players are pocket passers.  If you took away RGIII's legs, he would still be a very good QB.  

post #70 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

Then you know better than to get excited, don't you?  I mean during week one, did you ever doubt that Brady would march down the field whenever it became necessary?

 

I'm 29, and I only vaguely remember the super bowls.  I dont live near Buffalo, so I've only been to one game.  Bills lost to the Browns 6-3 in a game where Derek Anderson completed 2 passes for 23 yards.  That's the sort of thing I expect.

This time I think is different though. They cleaned house, new QB, new HC and coaching staff, new GM. Lots of young talent on offense and defense. 2013 appears to have been a very successful draft Alonso, Woods, Manuel. Again not saying they will make the playoffs this year, but with one more successful draft in a weak division I think next year we could make a legit run at 9-7/10-6 and a wildcard spot.

post #71 of 1006
I don't think there's ever been a successful running qb. Steve Young is probably the greatest mobile qb I can think of, but I wouldn't classify him as a running qb at all.

Running qbs have had no success in the NFL. Making the playoffs is the absolute bare minimum that is expected out of any qb, so I'd call it achieving the standard rather than being successful.

The blueprint is tried and true for qb success in the NFL: don't turn the ball over, and on command, hit a postage stamp on a bulls ass from 40 yards out on a frozen rope. It certainly helps to have a set of wheels to rely on when the pocket breaks down - that's why guys like Ben Roth, and Aaron Rodgers are so hard to defend.

In terms of a run first qb, they're fun to watch, and get fans outta their seats; but at the end of the day, it's tough to convince someone to stick in the pocket, complete a pass 20 yards downfield (knowing you're gonna get decleated) when they can just as easily scramble for 8 yards.

I do give Mike Vick a lot of credit though. He's definitely more of a passer now, and is willing to stick in there and take a hit for the sake of moving the ball and keeping the offense in sync.
post #72 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

Probably alone as raider fan but I do like what I'm seeing so far, more disciplined and focused team than years past, not expecting any division titles in next few years but I think Reggie McK has this team on right path. So much contract disasters to undo but I think this maybe the last year with lots of "dead money" counted against this years cap, I just hated the way Al Davis ran this team into the ground over the past decade.

 

I am not a Raider fan, but I enjoy watching them as a Bay Area team. I agree that the Raiders are much better than advertised. They could very easily be 2-0. I liked Al Davis a bunch so it is hard for me to say anything bad about him, but you have a point in that he was not doing the team any favors. 

 
Still, I miss those epic Al Davis press conferences.
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