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2013 NFL Football - Page 5

post #73 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

 

 

 

But this current crop of players are pocket passers.  If you took away RGIII's legs, he would still be a very good QB.  

 



Exactly! Just like Kaepernick and Wilson. Shoot Kaepernick threw for 400 yards against GB all from the pocket. I wouldnt call Kaep, Luck, Wilson, or RG3 running QBs. They are QB's that can run. (Please dont confuse this group of QB's to run first guys like Kordel Stewart and so on) . Yes I do believe this is the future and there is no right or wrong answer here because only time will tell.
post #74 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post
 
Yes I do believe this is the future and there is no right or wrong answer here because only time will tell.

 

Of course there is a wrong answer here.  Didn't you see what Erik and meenman said? :beer:

post #75 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

 

Of course there is a wrong answer here.  Didn't you see what Erik and meenman said? " src="http://files.thesandtrap.com//images/smilies/new/c2_beer.gif">

 



LOL!! Standing Ovation Sir
post #76 of 1006
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonTheSavage View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

 

 

But this current crop of players are pocket passers.  If you took away RGIII's legs, he would still be a very good QB.

 



Exactly! Just like Kaepernick and Wilson. Shoot Kaepernick threw for 400 yards against GB all from the pocket. I wouldnt call Kaep, Luck, Wilson, or RG3 running QBs. They are QB's that can run. (Please dont confuse this group of QB's to run first guys like Kordel Stewart and so on) . Yes I do believe this is the future and there is no right or wrong answer here because only time will tell.

The key to this whole "debate" is how you define a running quarterback.  I think if you are defining him as somebody who is a run first type of guy, then, yeah, I'd probably agree with Erik and everybody else who says running QBs are not that sustainable.  But those types are few and far between.  Vick, Cunningham, Tebow (lol), McNabb I guess, maybe Newton.  But if you're defining them as passers who can also run, then you get to include a lot of guys in that group.  Kaep, Wilson, RGIII are the current ones, then there is also John Elway, Steve Young, and Fran Tarkenton, among others.

post #77 of 1006
RGIII hasn't showed a single sign of being a passing qb this year. Take the pistol threat away from him, and he struggles hard. I'm willing to give him time, obviously, due to not having a preseason, and returning from injury.

Take a guy like Kap: give him two left feet, and he'll still torch you with his arm alone. That's the definition of a passing qb - a qb who needs nothing more than arm strength, accuracy, and confidence to get a W.
post #78 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous 273 View Post

due to not having a preseason, and returning from injury.

 

Gotta give him time for that. The dude is accurate, makes good reads, and has a cannon for an arm. Browns fans get screwed again...

post #79 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

Of course there is a wrong answer here.  Didn't you see what Erik and meenman said? :beer:

 

No, I talked about the past, and how I think that trend will continue in the future.

 

I'm not talking about "mobile" QBs. Heck, Ben in Pittsburgh is somewhat mobile (largely because he has to be in order to literally stay alive behind that OL), and he's had success. I'm saying that QBs with a propensity for running are not the wave of the future, and they haven't exactly had much success in the past.

 

Steve Young didn't have a propensity for running, but he's as close as you can find with good success in the last 25 years or so. McNabb is close, but he ran less than the modern "running" QB.

 

Escaping and scrambling for a first down or positive yardage is always going to be a plus over a PURE pocket passer, but I'm positing that being an A+ running QB isn't enough to offset being a B- pocket QB.

post #80 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

No, I talked about the past, and how I think that trend will continue in the future.

 

I'm not talking about "mobile" QBs. Heck, Ben in Pittsburgh is somewhat mobile (largely because he has to be in order to literally stay alive behind that OL), and he's had success. I'm saying that QBs with a propensity for running are not the wave of the future, and they haven't exactly had much success in the past.

 

Steve Young didn't have a propensity for running, but he's as close as you can find with good success in the last 25 years or so. McNabb is close, but he ran less than the modern "running" QB.

 

Escaping and scrambling for a first down or positive yardage is always going to be a plus over a PURE pocket passer, but I'm positing that being an A+ running QB isn't enough to offset being a B- pocket QB.

 

 

I have no clue how Ben is that Mobile, he's huge.

 

Well, I think the issue is durability. Even in the past, head coaches knew the luxury of having a top QB. Everyone thought Michael Vick would revolutionize the NFL. Then he got hit way to many times, and is seriously injury prone now. That's the problem. Instead of facing 1-2 guys with NFL talent every game in college, they are now facing NFL talent in every game. Its different when ever DB has 4.5 speed. When every linebacker has speed and hits hard.

 

 

Out of all the running QB's now, i think Colin Kaepernick is going to be the best. One he's learning from a guy who's had a ton of good QB's when he coached at Stanford. Second, he's just FAST. Third, he doesn't run unless he has to, so he's smart about it. Finally, the guy can just throw the ball a fricken mile. You can't teach arm strength. I think he'll have the best career out of all the mobile QB's so far. I know people like RGIII, but he's way to hyped, he's not nearly as good at passing as Colin is. Honestly if he doesn't get over that leg injury, or fear of hurting it again, he's done. If he can't have confidence to plant on that leg and throw, his career is over.

post #81 of 1006

The new breed of running QB's use running and the threat of running out of the pistol formation to make up for their inability to read defenses and check off receivers from the pocket.  Defenses weren't sure how to defend this because with the threat of a QB running it was 11 on 11 instead of 11 on 10.  Now defenses shadow the running QB with a fast linebacker or safety which is how Seattle shut down Kap last week and part of the reason why RG3 isn't running the option as frequently.

 

Running QB's eventually get dinged up and lose speed so after 2-3 years of playing in the NFL they have to learn to be pocket passers or lose their jobs because they aren't fast enough to beat defenses.

 

McNabb was a QB who could throw on the run, but in terms of accuracy, he couldn't hit the side of a barn dropping back into the pocket.

post #82 of 1006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infamous 273 View Post

RGIII hasn't showed a single sign of being a passing qb this year. Take the pistol threat away from him, and he struggles hard. I'm willing to give him time, obviously, due to not having a preseason, and returning from injury.

Take a guy like Kap: give him two left feet, and he'll still torch you with his arm alone. That's the definition of a passing qb - a qb who needs nothing more than arm strength, accuracy, and confidence to get a W.

 

Huh?  Have you followed him this year?  Or even last year?  He's thrown 650 yards in 2 games with 5 TD passes.  That's more than Kaepernick. His QB rating is higher than Brees, Brady, Eli, and Kap.  He threw for literally twice as many yards as Kaepernick last year AND ran for twice as many. Granted, Kaepernick started 8 games and played in 10, while RGIII started 15, but even if you adjust for that the numbers work out in RGIII's favor.  How can you recognize Kap as a passer but not RGIII?  

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Steve Young didn't have a propensity for running, but he's as close as you can find with good success in the last 25 years or so. McNabb is close, but he ran less than the modern "running" QB.

 

You know, I was thinking the same thing.  But the more I looked at it, the harder it became to draw a line.  Who are the modern running QBs?  RG3, Cam, Kap, and Wilson?  The first three, over 16 games, would run for about 750-850 yards a year.  But Wilson "only" ran for 489.  So if Wilson counts you've got to draw the line at say 400 yards.  Steve Young broke 400 yards rushing 5 times.  Only Vick and Cunningham did it more often, and they only did it 6 times.  If Young didnt sit behind Montana for 7 years he probably would have done it 6-7 times, making him the guy with the most 400+ seasons.  McNabb did it 3 times (high of 629) and McNair 5 times (including 674 and 559).  

 

So if you try to define Steve Young out of that group, say by counting guys who run for 600 yards or more, you're left with Vick and Cunningham who each did it 3 times.  McNair and McNabb did it once each, which probably isn't enough to put them solidly in this category.  Kaepernick and Wilson haven't hit that mark, though Kap probably would over 16 games.  I don't know how to look up who else might have done it other than guessing and checking their stats.  So I've come up with four players total, two of which are very young.  So to say that no "running" QB has had sustained success, you're talking about Vick and Cunningham.  I'd argue that both had really good careers AND that Newton and RGIII are more talented passers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

No, I talked about the past, and how I think that trend will continue in the future.

 

 
I was joking but you're right that in the past, high levels of rushing yards by QBs have not been sustainable.  I just disagree that RGIII and Cam Newton won't have sustained success because I think the rule changes to protect the ball carrier will mitigate that some, and I think these guys have the pocket passing skills to stick around.  
 
 
 

They aren't the same as the Michael Vicks of the world.  In RGIII's rookie season, his passing stats were better than Michael Vick's best year.  And he ran for more than 800 yards, which Vick has only done twice, and not in his best passing years.  I don't think some of you appreciate how much better these guys can be than the running QBs of the past.  Cam Newton threw for 4,000 yards and 3,800 yards in his first two seasons while also running for 700+.  He scored 62 TDs in his first two seasons.  Consider these passing numbers:

 

Yards--TDs--INT--Rating

 

Peyton Manning 1st Season - 3739--26--28--71.2

Peyton Manning 2nd Season - 4135--26--15--90.7

 

Tom Brady 1st (full) Season (14 games) - 2843--18--12--86.5

Tom Brady 2nd Season - 3764--28--14--85.7

 

Cam Newton First Season - 4051--21--17--84.5

Cam Newton Second Season - 3869--19--12--86.2

 

RGIII first season (15 games) 3200--20--5--102.4

 

 

Over his first two seasons Newton has thrown for far more yards than Brady did, and about as many as Manning did, while throwing 6 fewer TDs than Brady and 16 fewer TDs than Manning, but also throwing 14 fewer INTs than manning and only 3 more INTs than Brady.  So his passing numbers are pretty close to two pocket passing, first ballot hall of famers.  He set records for most passing yards by a rookie in a game and in a season.  First rookie to throw for 400 yards in back to back games.  First rookie to throw for more than 4000 yards in a season (only the 4th to throw for 3000).  Third most passing TD's by a rookie.  First rookie QB in the pro bowl (along with Dalton). 

 

 

RGII's first season was arguably a better passing season than two pocket passing, first ballot hall of famers.  He became the third rookie QB to make the pro bowl.  

 

 

These guys are like taking Drew Bledsoe or Rich Gannon and giving them Michael Vick's legs.  

 

 

 

 

**Interesting note, only 10 active players have more career rushing yards than Michael Vick.  91st all time.

post #83 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

Huh?  Have you followed him this year?  Or even last year?  He's thrown 650 yards in 2 games with 5 TD passes.  That's more than Kaepernick. His QB rating is higher than Brees, Brady, Eli, and Kap.  He threw for literally twice as many yards as Kaepernick last year AND ran for twice as many. Granted, Kaepernick started 8 games and played in 10, while RGIII started 15, but even if you adjust for that the numbers work out in RGIII's favor.  How can you recognize Kap as a passer but not RGIII?  

 

 

Dude, all those stats came in garbage time against prevent defenses because they were so far behind. He has NOT played well this year. It's to be expected...he isn't back in game shape yet. Especially mentally. It'll come back, but those stats don't tell the real story.

post #84 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Dude, all those stats came in garbage time against prevent defenses because they were so far behind. He has NOT played well this year. It's to be expected...he isn't back in game shape yet. Especially mentally. It'll come back, but those stats don't tell the real story.

This.
post #85 of 1006

Also, RGIII is entering in an era of high octane offenses. Peyton came in during a completely different time. Back when you had 1 RB, and you ran the ball, and you ran the ball, and you ran the ball. It wasn't until the mid 2000's, after LT started his decline did you see the air raid offenses we do today. So of course RGIII numbers are INFLATED!!! He has another 10 years of advancement in offenses. Right now Offenses have the edge on defenses. It use to be, hold RB to less than 4 yards a carry, less than 100 yards of rushing, under 300 yards of passing. Now defenses don't care how many yards your putting up, as long as there is no scores on the board. They are more concerned about impact plays. Sacks, Tackles for Loss, and Turn overs. What ever can give you an extra series for your offense. Its a whole new era here. You can't compare them like that. 

post #86 of 1006
I get that this year is garbage time, but he did it last year too.

And yes,these be offensive times. But my point is that these guys can swing it, not that they are better than Brady or Manning.
post #87 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

I get that this year is garbage time, but he did it last year too.

And yes,these be offensive times. But my point is that these guys can swing it, not that they are better than Brady or Manning.

 

Oh, I'm not dogging RG III. Even if he couldn't run, I believe he'd still be a good QB. Great arm, can read defenses, makes smart decisions, looks off his receivers, and is accurate. Pretty much all the tools you need, he just needs to fine tune them.

 
Just stating that the stats this year can't be taken at face value, and he's still struggling after the ACL tear.
post #88 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

 

Over his first two seasons Newton has thrown for far more yards than Brady did, and about as many as Manning did, while throwing 6 fewer TDs than Brady and 16 fewer TDs than Manning, but also throwing 14 fewer INTs than manning and only 3 more INTs than Brady.  So his passing numbers are pretty close to two pocket passing, first ballot hall of famers.  He set records for most passing yards by a rookie in a game and in a season.  First rookie to throw for 400 yards in back to back games.  First rookie to throw for more than 4000 yards in a season (only the 4th to throw for 3000).  Third most passing TD's by a rookie.  First rookie QB in the pro bowl (along with Dalton). 

 

 

RGII's first season was arguably a better passing season than two pocket passing, first ballot hall of famers.  He became the third rookie QB to make the pro bowl.  

 

 

These guys are like taking Drew Bledsoe or Rich Gannon and giving them Michael Vick's legs.  

 

 

 

 

**Interesting note, only 10 active players have more career rushing yards than Michael Vick.  91st all time.

Be careful on this comparison.  The rules have changed significantly since Manning and Brady came into the league.  Up until 2004, defenses could shut down passing with a lot more receiver contact.  Now you can't touch the receiver after 5 yards and they call a lot more PI.  That really helps the new QBs.

post #89 of 1006
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Be careful on this comparison.  The rules have changed significantly since Manning and Brady came into the league.  Up until 2004, defenses could shut down passing with a lot more receiver contact.  Now you can't touch the receiver after 5 yards and they call a lot more PI.  That really helps the new QBs.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

And yes,these be offensive times. But my point is that these guys can swing it, not that they are better than Brady or Manning.
post #90 of 1006
They are very good, but the ease of putting up good numbers makes the comparison difficult. It is like comparing Bart Starr to the current QBs, when he played in the dead ball era.
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