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Course Management... - Page 2

post #19 of 41

For high handicappers, it is easier said than done.  Speaking from my experience, when I was high handicapper, e.g, laying up with a shorter club often backfired.  Either I chunked it into trouble still or left too long of a next shot.   Course management started making sense as I have more command on every aspect of golf.    When it starts to make sense will be different from golfer to golfer.  But for beginners & high handicappers, learning the fundamentals of golf (from putting to hitting driver) before worrying about course management (what course management?) would be 1st priority.

post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

For high handicappers, it is easier said than done.  Speaking from my experience, when I was high handicapper, e.g, laying up with a shorter club often backfired.  Either I chunked it into trouble still or left too long of a next shot.   Course management started making sense as I have more command on every aspect of golf.    When it starts to make sense will be different from golfer to golfer.  But for beginners & high handicappers, learning the fundamentals of golf (from putting to hitting driver) before worrying about course management (what course management?) would be 1st priority.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Me more appropriately, you not so much? I agree. :-D

 

 

That's not the same thing.

 

Course management is divorced from the results that follow, or to put it another way, past results inform the course management, and what happens after that is irrelevant (except to feed into later course management decisions).

 

Past results ---> current course management situation. That's the flow.

 

Poor execution virtually always results in difficulty making good scores.

 

 

Not really, no, because there aren't really 27 possible outcomes. There are a few, but the good player has to factor a few in as well. Going from 3 possible outcomes to 4 or 5 isn't "much more difficult."

 

And I disagree that you're "using my terminology." I'm using the terminology the way it's used - you're the one tying "course management" into execution.

 

7I all over the place: 1% chance of one-putting for birdie, 19% chance of two-putting for par, 50% chance of missing the green, hitting it on, and two-putting for bogey, and 30% chance of double or worse.

7I to small area: 5% chance of one-putting for birdie, 50% chance of two-putting for par or getting up and down for par, 40% chance of missing the green but chipping on and putting for bogey, 5% chance of double or worse.

 

If course management requires good to great execution, then nobody should worry a lick about course management until they can play to a 6 or less or something.

 

 

I disagree that it's a "lot" easier. In fact, as a player gets better, his course management often becomes more fine-grained - what kind of SHOT does he want to play with his 7I? What trajectory? How much spin? What shape? What exactly is the wind doing? How firm are the greens? Will that slope feed the ball in or is it not steep enough? What if you get the wrong side of that ridge? Where's the easiest chip shot? What's the lie like? Any mud on the ball? Do I need birdie? I could easily make the case that the scratch golfer has MORE difficulty choosing the type of shot they want to play because they're more aware of some of these things and they can control their shots better. I won't, but I could.

 

 

I didn't say that good or bad course management is proved or disproved by the results that follow.  What I said was that more consistent golfers have fewer variables (aka possible outcomes) in their calculation to determine which shot to choose.  There might not be 27 possible scores, but a strong inconsistent 30 capper can certainly hit a 7i into a lot more positions on the golf course than a scratch player and your "double bogey or worse" category will included more triples, quads, etc with the 30 capper than the scratch player.  

 

Take this thread for example- http://thesandtrap.com/t/69652/235-out-on-this-par-five-whats-the-play  If we were deciding the correct play for a player more consistent than you, say Iron Byron, the calculation would be very simple- set Byron to hit a 235 yard fade to the back right hole location and estimate how many times he would 1 putt after hitting the green.  For a player like yourself, there are multiple choices that might make sense with relatively straight forward calculations for each option.  For a 30+ capper who might nut his 3w 235 or top it 50 yards or might slice it into the woods or come over the top and double cross, or might shank his 4i if he lays up, the average expected score with each option takes more time and effort to calculate.  Is it impossible to calculate- no, but it is not as easy to make the right decision as it would be for Iron Byron or yourself.  Do you think the thread would have 200+ posts if we were debating how Iron Byron should play the shot?  It is his consistency compared to yours that makes the course management decision easier and less open for debate.

 

You are correct that better players can fine tune more than high cappers because of their ability to work the ball and play different shots but the average score calculation with each option is still going to be easier than with a inconsistent high capper who has no idea where he is going to hit the ball.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Course management becomes easier as you hit the ball more consistent...

 

I'll stick by what I said.

post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I don't agree.

 

Course management occurs before the outcome. The outcome doesn't make course management "more difficult."

 

A player who plans to play a 150-yard 7-iron to the middle of a green hasn't experienced "more difficult" course management when he shanks it into the pond. He's still played the odds. His score suffers, but his course management has not.

 

Course management is simply playing the odds correctly to shoot the lowest score on average.

 

This.  Nothing ticks me off more than making a smart play, and then having poor execution of the smart shot land me in more trouble or fail to get me out of the trouble I was in.  But it happens and it does not invalidate the smartness of the play I tried.

post #22 of 41
I've set up my course management to play for a 90 for a couple of years and still couldn't break 100.

When I eventually did it was because I had grooved my swing simply by practicing in a net. I would say a high handicapper can gain more confidence by playing a sound strategy but you are only as good as your current level of play.

Its really only now that I really get a look at situations and can determine what shot to play next.

Before it could 4 shots before I was on the green or I was already taking a Third shot because I was OB on the tee. Strategy then has no meaning.
Strategy can save a few strokes when you are a higher handicap but it is a negligible difference. I did it both ways and the swing was about 6 strokes. 100-109 on average for me.

Poor ballstriking was the main reason with longer clubs and very poor wedge play. I had no feel for distance and was a lousy chipper of the ball. Hence the scores.

So to a large extent I agree with the premise that execution and management are totally separate but kinda of agree that they are linked to your mental side of your game that one can breed confidence into the other
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Course management occurs before the outcome. The outcome doesn't make course management "more difficult."

 

A player who plans to play a 150-yard 7-iron to the middle of a green hasn't experienced "more difficult" course management when he shanks it into the pond. He's still played the odds. His score suffers, but his course management has not.

 

Course management is simply playing the odds correctly to shoot the lowest score on average.

I agree with the statements in bold but a guy who has more potential outcomes (aka is less consistent) has more computations to do to calculate which shot will be expected to result in the lowest score.

 

If a guy regularly shanks 35% of his 7 irons from 150 yards, then maybe the correct play for him to shoot the lowest score on average is to hit something that he is less likely to shank into the pond, even if it means coming up short of the green.  To choose between hitting to the middle of the green or laying up short of the pond, he then will have to compute what his expected outcomes are on the next shot(s).  This is something that a golfer of your consistency would not even have to consider.

 

Course management becomes easier when you are more consistent.

post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I agree with the statements in bold but a guy who has more potential outcomes (aka is less consistent) has more computations to do to calculate which shot will be expected to result in the lowest score.

 

No he doesn't, and I already described how the better player could have a LOT more options.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

If a guy regularly shanks 35% of his 7 irons from 150 yards

 

Seriously? ME, do you understand how ridiculous posts like this make you look?

 

I'm generally against using made up scenarios, but this one takes the cake. Give me (and all of us) a break.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Course management becomes easier when you are more consistent.

 

Not necessarily.

post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

No he doesn't, and I already described how the better player could have a LOT more options.

 

 

Seriously? ME, do you understand how ridiculous posts like this make you look?

 

I'm generally against using made up scenarios, but this one takes the cake. Give me (and all of us) a break.

 

 

 

All I did was put numbers to YOUR scenario.  There might not be a lot of guys who shank the ball 35% of the time, but with a pond on the shank/slice side of a green, I have definitely seen guys who will find that pond 35% of the time if they go for the green from 150 yards.  Yes, these are bad players, but that is my point.  The less consistent you are, the harder it is to figure out where you will actual hit the shot you are trying to put on the middle of the green.  Having no idea where your ball is going to go with each shot makes course management harder.

post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

All I did was put numbers to YOUR scenario.

 

My scenario was real and existed. I was the golfer in the scenario.

 

You made up a guy who shanks 35% of his 7-irons? Give me a break.

 

If a golfer hits 35% of his shots in the water from 150 yards, it seems to me his choice becomes incredibly obvious.

 

I'm done ME.

post #27 of 41

Course strategy plays a huge roll in how you attack the golf course for a lower handicapped player. I played a round this summer with some 20 handicap co-workers at a nice resort course I had never been on before. We only get together once or twice a year to golf and they wanted to play the regular men's tees. From those set of tees there were a number of short par4's that I could nearly drive so not really caring what I shot that day I went into "bomb and gouge" mode hitting Driver on those holes(probably showing off a little). I easily birdied #2 but short sided myself on the next few holes and made some ugly bogies.

    After the round were having lunch and a beer and my buddy asks me how I liked the course? I told him it was great but next time I play it I'll play from the back tees and use a more conventional strategy not hitting so many Driver's off the tee. My buddy asked why would you change your strategy? He didn't understand that that's not how you properly attack a golf course. I rolled the dice way too many times that day goofing around. Playing for score I would have hit many more irons and hybrids off the tees leaving myself full wedges into the greens.

 

As far as course management for the higher handicap players I think they would do good to keep it as simple and basic as possible until their ball striking improves. If you hit it into trouble, just punch out and take your medicine. Practice hitting high, low, and curving shots on the range and when you can start to consistently hit them then take it to the golf course. I see too many players trying to pull off shots that they have no chance at and get themselves in more trouble.

 

High handicappers talk about having to hit those "Hero Shot's" and how they should have just punched out. Well, something really weird happens when you improve your consistency and ball striking, you have fewer and fewer of those "Hero Shot's" per round!

post #28 of 41
Those golfers dont exist and if youre not breaking 120 then you are right course management is pointless but if you are breaking 100 or Close-Then course management can still take strokes off your game. Course management for a bad player is EASIER because the choices are not as grey they are Black and White I have not yet met a golfer who hits the ball in 27 different possible directions so stop making stuff up. This entire conversation is stupid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

Having no idea where your ball is going to go with each shot makes course management harder.
post #29 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

My scenario was real and existed. I was the golfer in the scenario.

 

You made up a guy who shanks 35% of his 7-irons? Give me a break.

 

If a golfer hits 35% of his shots in the water from 150 yards, it seems to me his choice becomes incredibly obvious.

 

 

Yes, the choices are easy for you, not so much for the 30+ capper who can hit it 150 straight, shank, chunk, hook, slice or top it.

 

Have you ever played with any really bad golfers?  What is the "incredibly obvious" choice for the guy who hits 35% of his shots from 150 yards into the water?  Suppose he decides to lay up with a wedge but 10% of the time he chooses this he blades it in the water anyways.  Assuming he lays up successfully, 20% of the time he will put the next shot into the water.   What is the "incredibly obvious" choice for them?  Give up the game?  Buy cheap balls?  Take lessons?  

post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Yes, the choices are easy for you, not so much for the 30+ capper who can hit it 150 straight, shank, chunk, hook, slice or top it.

 

The choices were not easy for me. Dave and I had to discuss it at the time, and I started an entire thread on it, which got all sorts of responses across the board. The choices required a fair amount of analysis. Or did you miss my 2500 word post on it?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Have you ever played with any really bad golfers?

 

Yes, I have.

 

I'm now going to ignore you, for your sake and mine.

post #31 of 41

I think course management is hurting my handicap index.    With good course management, I tend to score in high 80s and low 90s - no very low or high numbers.   When I play riskier golf, I will sometimes have a breakout round (risks rewarded) that brings down the handicap by a full point.   ;-)

post #32 of 41

Long story short, i've always told guys trying to break 80 for the first time that it won't happen for them until they learn how to avoid any score higher than a bogey.  If you're shooting in the low 70's consistently, making birdies etc. then it really doesn't matter but if you're trying to break through for the first time you need to give yourself room to make 7-9 bogeys.  Making doubles or worse just adds more pressure to the rest of your round.

post #33 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutter View Post
 

Long story short, i've always told guys trying to break 80 for the first time that it won't happen for them until they learn how to avoid any score higher than a bogey.  If you're shooting in the low 70's consistently, making birdies etc. then it really doesn't matter but if you're trying to break through for the first time you need to give yourself room to make 7-9 bogeys.  Making doubles or worse just adds more pressure to the rest of your round.

 

 

I agree with this. My friend was right on the brink of breaking 80, but he always had one or two holes that would cost him. He would hit one OB and double-bogey a hole, or just play a shot poorly which led to a high score... I finally got him managing the course better so that he makes the aggressive plays when they are practical, but knows when to lay up if they aren't. Three of his last 5 rounds have been 78, 79, and 79. I think part of it is breaking the mental barrier of shooting in the 70's, but there's no doubt course management has saved him from the bigger holes that he used to have.

post #34 of 41

generally i think that when you begin to go about playing differently than you feel comfortable with, you make unforced errors,simply because you are altering your style.however course management is a learned skill when playing golf.if you feel comfortable going at a short par 4 with a driver rather than a seven its not exactly great course managment but the reality of the situation is you could be maybe 100 yrds out after a drive,whether it be in the rough trees ect.and have a better chance of getting up and down as opposed say,chunking the 7i off the tee,abd having a long iron shot to the green,which for a high handicapper is a difficult shot.so sometimes its what you fell comfortable doing within your own abilities.

post #35 of 41
This is the way I look at course management... Play the percentages. I try to play for the best possible outcome with a shot I can hit at least 80% of the time (except off the tee... Which I ignore the percentages because I can't get over not going for the big bang... Stupid, I know, and it does cost me strokes). If I have a chance at getting on in 2 on a Par 5, but I'll only do that 30% of the time and wind up in big trouble if I miss... Then I'll decide on the next best shot, something I can do 80% of the time without getting into big trouble.

When I was a 30 hcp, there weren't any shots I could hit 80% of the time... Nor did I even have a clue what course management was. I'm not sure course management would have helped much at all. I could bomb the ball... And that was it.

You could be a 30 hcp because you are horrible at course management... Or you could be a 30 hcp because you have a terrible swing regardless of making the best decision possible (good course management).

There are so many variables someone could throw out there. It all comes down to playing the best round, shot, that one is capable of. So course management is what it is... But the decision making process could be totally different depending on so many variables.
post #36 of 41
Originally Posted by MEfree:
"Having no idea where your ball is going to go with each shot makes course management harder."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

Those golfers dont exist and if youre not breaking 120 then you are right course management is pointless but if you are breaking 100 or Close-Then course management can still take strokes off your game. Course management for a bad player is EASIER because the choices are not as grey they are Black and White I have not yet met a golfer who hits the ball in 27 different possible directions so stop making stuff up. This entire conversation is stupid.

Phil, are you saying that a golfer who has no idea where his ball is likely to go with each shot does not exist?
If so, I don't know what world you have been living in.
There are plenty of people out there who fit that category. You are correct, if one does fit that category, course management is pointless. (aka probably not going to make a difference)
Personal management comes more into play in this case..ie: don't try to hit a club you know you will not be able to hit.
Course management seems more like: if I hit this club I will come up short and miss the bunker, or I can hit this club and maybe clear the bunker.
I think there is a difference between personal management and course management ; however it may be a fine line
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