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56 or 60 club face in a bunker ( various lays) - Page 6

post #91 of 121

I think 90% of the reason to not lock this thread is for the pure comedy.

post #92 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I think 90% of the reason to not lock this thread is for the pure comedy.
Who's side are you on?

I think we are all correct- they are talking about what gets the ball out. And it was trying to get more specific but they don't understand that it all is key to get the ball up and left.
Everything except stated loft
post #93 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post


Who's side are you on?

I think we are all correct- they are talking about what gets the ball out. And it was trying to get more specific but they don't understand that it all is key to get the ball up and left.
Everything except stated loft

 

LOL

 
Sure kid, WE don't understand. The "whole thing on friction" started because you're insisting that it's the sole reason the ball gets out of the sand in bunker shots. Do I need to repeat my internet analogy? 
 
And again, if loft didn't matter, Phil wouldn't buy a 64*, he'd just open his 56 up 8 degrees....since it makes no difference.
post #94 of 121

Here's what Greg Norman has to say about it...

 

Sand play is elementary physics. I was never a science whiz in school, but I learned enough to know that if you push the sand in the correct manner, it will transfer your energy and lift the ball in the way you want it to fly. It's basic earthmoving.

 

Let me give an example using an area where I am comfortable -- in the water. Think about splashing around in a pool. When you want to splash someone way on the other side of the pool, you whisk your palm across the top of the water with a flat, skimming motion, creating a long, low splash. When you want to douse someone right next to you, you slap downward on a sharp angle into the water, for a high, cresting splash.

 

Picture a golf ball riding the tops of those splashes, and you'll have a good idea of the basic forces at work in bunker play. Instead of water, your ball rides out on sand. Instead of using your hand, you use the club.

 

Notice there's no mention of friction.  :doh:

post #95 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

Left

And your gonna say so the ball goes left

And my question would be why dose the ball go left if the face is 90

Hint: friction

Left? What are you talking about?

If the ball goes left, it's because you've opened your stance and are swinging a bit inward at the bottom of the club arc.
post #96 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


Left? What are you talking about?

If the ball goes left, it's because you've opened your stance and are swinging a bit inward at the bottom of the club arc.

 

He means relative to where you're facing. Even though we all know you're aiming forward in the general sense.

post #97 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The energy transferred from the clubhead, through the sand and into the ball is what moves the ball.  When you are talking about several thousand grains of sand, the math might get a bit complicated, but it's the transference of the energy of all of those grains of sand against the ball that makes it move, and the sand is moved by transferring the energy from the clubhead into the sand.  The direction in which the ball moves depends on the vector of the force (which is determined by angle of the clubface and the direction the club is moving) when that force is applied to the ball.  Friction is not force, it is resistance to force.
Ok so if the face is about 90* then what causes the sand to move foreword instead of straight up??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Holy Christ...

Friction is responsible for bunker shots like air is responsible for the internet working. Without air, nobody would be alive, so the internet wouldn't work. Therefore, the internet was created by air. 

That's your argument.
yes, kinda, not really, read above

 

The face isn't 90°.  That's a myth.

post #98 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

LOL
 
Sure kid, WE don't understand. The "whole thing on friction" started because you're insisting that it's the sole reason the ball gets out of the sand in bunker shots. Do I need to repeat my internet analogy? 
 
And again, if loft didn't matter, Phil wouldn't buy a 64*, he'd just open his 56 up 8 degrees....since it makes no difference.
Maybe because it's easier to find the correct bounce... And he wants other clubs with different bounces for different things...
And that is different because it is also hit off of turf

And I never said the main reason is that's what gets the ball out. I said its part of why the ball goes foreward instead of go straight up which someone said. This started because of that. Yes other things play a big part but friction is like oxygen, it is apsolutely necessary and is important, not only for the obvious reasons but also to get the ball headed in the direction of the sand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

The face isn't 90°.  That's a myth.
well maybe that's what I am missing
post #99 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post

And I never said the main reason is that's what gets the ball out. I said its part of why the ball goes foreward instead of go straight up which someone said. This started because of that. Yes other things play a big part but friction is like oxygen, it is apsolutely necessary and is important, not only for the obvious reasons but also to get the ball headed in the direction of the sand

 

Here's what you're missing...

 

Friction is no more important in a sand shot as it is in any other shot. That would be same as answering any golf question with "friction".

 

How do you hit pitch shots? Friction.

How do you hit your driver? Friction.

How do you get in your stance without infinitely sliding in the direction you moved? Friction.

How do you grip your club? Friction.

How come when you putt, the ball doesn't go 7 miles? Friction.

 

Friction is involved in every one of those...but do you see how it's not a reasonable answer for most of them? That's what I'm trying to explain. 

 

Since you seriously seem like you're asking, I'll try to describe it as basic as I can...

 

Even if you're theoretically swinging with a 90 degree open club face, the club is not infinitely thin...if it was, then the sand (or ball) would not move forward, as the club would just glide in between all the particles. However, in the real world, the club has a volume and a mass. And when that object (club) hits the sand (assuming it hits with enough force), the sand has to go somewhere. The club displaces the sand in the direction of the movement...forward. That's what causes the sand and ball to move forward. Friction is involved, but it's also involved in every aspect of golf. 

 

Does that make sense?

post #100 of 121
Think about it this way. Ice is as close to friction less as you get. If you throw an icecube into a pond of water, the water will move. If the clubface interaction with the sand was frictionless it will move sand. If you have a car with frictionless wheels, it will spin in place, until you give it a push from behind, then it will slide. Friction isn't the sole cause of motion, it restricts motion only. Basically if the club was frictionless with the sand, your club would glide through the sand more effortlessly. 
 
 

On the issue of the plane, i can't let it go, its been wracking my brain for the whole day. I am discussing it with my friend who works for NASA. So i'll have a rocket scientist opinion here soon ;) 

post #101 of 121
I'm surprised that some of the more experienced Sand Trap guys are partaking in this petty quarrel. It seems to me that Nick has won this battle - not because he's right, but because he has you guys riled up and engaged in this "I'm smarter than you" back and forth...
post #102 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

Here's what you're missing...

Friction is no more important in a sand shot as it is in any other shot. That would be same as answering any golf question with "friction".

How do you hit pitch shots? Friction.
How do you hit your driver? Friction.
How do you get in your stance without infinitely sliding in the direction you moved? Friction.
How do you grip your club? Friction.
How come when you putt, the ball doesn't go 7 miles? Friction.

Friction is involved in every one of those...but do you see how it's not a reasonable answer for most of them? That's what I'm trying to explain. 

Since you seriously seem like you're asking, I'll try to describe it as basic as I can...

Even if you're theoretically swinging with a 90 degree open club face, the club is not infinitely thin...if it was, then the sand (or ball) would not move forward, as the club would just glide in between all the particles. However, in the real world, the club has a volume and a mass. And when that object (club) hits the sand (assuming it hits with enough force), the sand has to go somewhere. The club displaces the sand in the direction of the movement...forward. That's what causes the sand and ball to move forward. Friction is involved, but it's also involved in every aspect of golf. 

Does that make sense?

It does thank you

Let me just make sure I'm getting it though, your saying that the force of the sole on the sand is what pushes the ball foreword rather than it coming from the face? Or where does the force come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 
 
On the issue of the plane, i can't let it go, its been wracking my brain for the whole day. I am discussing it with my friend who works for NASA. So i'll have a rocket scientist opinion here soon ;) 
if you are talking about if a plane can take off of a conveyer belt the answer is no I think, unless there is an ungodly heavy wind into the nose

But on this one I'm not gonna argue my case if you think I'm wrong because apparently I really don't know anything
post #103 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

I'm surprised that some of the more experienced Sand Trap guys are partaking in this petty quarrel. It seems to me that Nick has won this battle - not because he's right, but because he has you guys riled up and engaged in this "I'm smarter than you" back and forth...

 

You can take it how you want. I don't really consider petty internet arguments or debates "battles", but to each their own I suppose.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post


It does thank you

Let me just make sure I'm getting it though, your saying that the force of the sole on the sand is what pushes the ball foreword rather than it coming from the face? Or where does the force come from?
if you are talking about if a plane can take off of a conveyer belt the answer is no I think, unless there is an ungodly heavy wind into the nose

But on this one I'm not gonna argue my case if you think I'm wrong because apparently I really don't know anything

 

That's (very simplified) what starts moving the sand in the "forward" direction, yes.

 

As far as the plane debate, a plane doesn't move forward by its wheels. There's no engine for the wheels...there are jet engines which provide thrust. The wheels just reduce (you'll love this) friction.


Edited by Slice of Life - 9/24/13 at 10:50pm
post #104 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 
 
On the issue of the plane, i can't let it go, its been wracking my brain for the whole day. I am discussing it with my friend who works for NASA. So i'll have a rocket scientist opinion here soon ;) 

The thing that really made me get it was that on a plane, wheels have very little effect on the movement of the airplane.

Say you tie a piece of rope to the end of each of the plane's wings, and attach the other end of the ropes to stationary towers. You can turn the treadmill up as high as you want it, those towers are keeping that plane stationary no problem. The only force they have to overcome is a small friction force between the wheels and the wheel bearings, because that's the only effect the treadmill has on the plane.

Take away the rope and the towers, and that small friction force is the only addition force necessary to overcome during liftoff.
post #105 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

The thing that really made me get it was that on a plane, wheels have very little effect on the movement of the airplane.

Say you tie a piece of rope to the end of each of the plane's wings, and attach the other end of the ropes to stationary towers. You can turn the treadmill up as high as you want it, those towers are keeping that plane stationary no problem. The only force they have to overcome is a small friction force between the wheels and the wheel bearings, because that's the only effect the treadmill has on the plane.

Take away the rope and the towers, and that small friction force is the only addition force necessary to overcome during liftoff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post

You can take it how you want. I don't really consider petty internet arguments or debates "battles", but to each their own I suppose.


That's (very simplified) what starts moving the sand in the "forward" direction, yes.

As far as the plane debate, a plane doesn't move forward by its wheels. There's no engine for the wheels...there are jet engines which provide thrust. The wheels just reduce (you'll love this) friction.
Hey friction is one of the greatest forces of the universe. You can't go wrong with it. It will surround you, it will overcome you, you are and will always be, ....with Friction

Lololol


And to jamo
What about gravity and wind resistance?
post #106 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

 
 
On the issue of the plane, i can't let it go, its been wracking my brain for the whole day. I am discussing it with my friend who works for NASA. So i'll have a rocket scientist opinion here soon ;) 

LOL.

Read Erik's post in the plane thread about the subway car with wheels welded to the roof.
post #107 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick1998bunker View Post



What about gravity and wind resistance?

 

What about them, and what do they have to do with whether airplanes fly, or not?  Because I assure you, in spite of both, airplanes do fly.

 

It's all been hashed out in the thread I posted above though.  Read all about it there.  Really not all that complicated, it just throws some people for a bit of a loop if they don't think through what causes forward movement of an aircraft, as opposed to that of a car.

 

 

OT for this thread though.

 

If someone wants to continue the discussion, I'd recommend breaking out the old thread and doing so there......

post #108 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

If someone wants to continue the discussion, I'd recommend breaking out the old thread and doing so there......

Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!
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