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Is this guy a sandbagger? - Page 4

Poll Results: Is this guy a sandbagger?

 
  • 18% (6)
    No. He plays by the Rules and posts all his scores
  • 28% (9)
    No. While his style of play may be different for tournaments, the handicap formula says he is a 10-12 index
  • 25% (8)
    No. As long as he is not varying his style of play in order to manipulate the system, he is good to go.
  • 6% (2)
    No. Some other reason (explain below)
  • 3% (1)
    Yes. The fact that his results are significantly better in tournaments is sufficient proof for me.
  • 15% (5)
    Yes. By playing differently depending on whether it is a tournament, violates one of the basic premises on which the handicap system stands
  • 0% (0)
    Yes. Some other reason (explain below)
  • 3% (1)
    Not sure. I need more information.
32 Total Votes  
post #55 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

What if his tournament scores had a 4 stroke range (I.e. 77 to 81), but all of his casual rounds were higher than 81? If this golfer shot in the same 4 shot range of 77 to 81 in his casual rounds, his overall handicap would lower by, what, 2 strokes maybe?

 

That's a fair point. But still, I don't find fault with the guy's casual rounds. He could just be geared to compete.

 

The more I think about it though the more I think the original post has some flaws. You can't continually beat your handicap by 3-4 strokes for very long. Your handicap catches up to you.

post #56 of 75

Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the guy substituting his casual rounds, where he is admittedly practicing, trying shots he would not try in a tournament, playing a more social form of golf, for his highest tournament rounds?  That is where the slight of hand is. That way he gets to leave in his worst tournament rounds for handicap purposes. You can argue about how much the difference is, but you can't argue that he is introducing a bias in his favor.

 

I am new to golf, but I thought there was a certain honor system involved, and if the guy is going to submit the rounds, he should be trying his best on every hole. Without honorable behavior, the whole handicap system is a bad joke benefiting the dishonorable. This thread is really about how much cheating can somebody get away with without getting the label of "sandbagger."

post #57 of 75

Instead of "cheating" I should have said "how far you can bend the rules."

post #58 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

OK, let's do that.  If I extrapolate out your numbers, I get something like: 84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T, 84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T.

 

If said guy plays the same in his casual rounds as tourney rounds then you get: 79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T, 79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T

 

I don't even have to go any further with the math than that.  The best ten are still the exact same ten.

 

What a f**king dumbass!  OK, lets try this again ...  (For fun, let's say the course is a 72.0/130)

 

Golfer Z:  84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T, 84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T.

 

Golfer X:  79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T, 79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T

 

Golfer Z's handicap is 5.9.  Golfer X's handicap is 5.4.

 

On my hypothetical course, his course handicap would be 1 stroke higher if he played all of his casual rounds the same as his tournament rounds.  I guess a case could be made for him being a sandbagger ... albeit a teeny tiny one.

 

I would still vote no based on OP's info.  I believe the key is that he is still trying ... he's not doing anything malicious or deceptive.

post #59 of 75

That's true but will the Golf Committee or the Pro do it. If they don't, what do you do then? Golf Committees and Pro's are under pressure to keep membership and participation up. When they don't, it is counterproductive to tournament participation. I know many people who won't participate in club events because they are tired of the same people winning. I think the answer is peer pressure. It is the third leg of the stool that stops sandbagging. Handicap or Golf Committee, Pro and peer pressure.

post #60 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandbagger0ne View Post
 

That's true but will the Golf Committee or the Pro do it. If they don't, what do you do then? Golf Committees and Pro's are under pressure to keep membership and participation up. When they don't, it is counterproductive to tournament participation. I know many people who won't participate in club events because they are tired of the same people winning. I think the answer is peer pressure. It is the third leg of the stool that stops sandbagging. Handicap or Golf Committee, Pro and peer pressure.

Quick tip:  You know who you are talking to because you just read their post, however, if its not the most recent post, it's hard for us to tell who you are talking to.  Please use the "quote" feature at the bottom right of the post you are referencing you we can tell what you mean.

 

Also, since you're new, here's a few other quick tips ...http://thesandtrap.com/t/69379/newbie-helpers-little-things-everyone-expects-and-asks-of-users/0_30

 

And, welcome!

 

P.S.  Your opinion holds no water in this thread as you are, admittedly, the number one sandbagger. :-P

post #61 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

What a f**king dumbass!  OK, lets try this again ...  (For fun, let's say the course is a 72.0/130)

Golfer Z:  84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T, 84, 79T, 85, 80T, 83, 80T, 85, 78T, 84, 79T.

Golfer X:  79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T, 79, 79T, 80, 80T, 80, 80T, 78, 78T, 79, 79T

Golfer Z's handicap is 5.9.  Golfer X's handicap is 5.4.

On my hypothetical course, his course handicap would be 1 stroke higher if he played all of his casual rounds the same as his tournament rounds.  I guess a case could be made for him being a sandbagger ... albeit a teeny tiny one.

I would still vote no based on OP's info.  I believe the key is that he is still trying ... he's not doing anything malicious or deceptive.

FWIW - the difference is smaller than I anticipated. I did the same comparison while assuming t scores are 77, 79, 81, 77, 79, 81, etc. Using what I think your methodology was above, the handicaps came out to 4.5 and 5.7. Still not as significant as I figured it would be.
post #62 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post


FWIW - the difference is smaller than I anticipated. I did the same comparison while assuming t scores are 77, 79, 81, 77, 79, 81, etc. Using what I think your methodology was above, the handicaps came out to 4.5 and 5.7. Still not as significant as I figured it would be.

 

And I feel like intent matters here.

 

If, during a casual round he thinks to himself "I'm going to try and cut this corner because even though its risky, I believe I can do it, and if I pull it off it will lead to an easy birdie," in my view there is no problem.

 

On the other hand, if he says things like "f**k it, I'm gonna pull a Happy Gilmore here and see how far I can hit it because if I get stuck in the trees its better for my handicap so who cares" then I think you can call him a sandbagger.

post #63 of 75

I have a feeling that not many people bothered to look at Section 10-3 of the handicap manual that I cited earlier in the thread.  Because under that section the OP's description does not seem possible.  It does not take that much for someone's tournament scores to cause an adjustment in their index when the performance in tournaments is as out of line with their non-tournament scoring as the OP is describing.  There has to be something else going on here.  Either the difference is not as much as the OP has implied or the tournament scores are not being properly posted as T scores or something else.  And T scores get maintained, as a possible basis for adjusting an index, for quite a while, so you cannot get rid of them by posting a bunch of casual rounds to get them out of your most recent 20 scores.

 

Scores and indexes are basically public knowledge, so it would be interesting to have the player identified so we could see what his actual posting history is and whether his T-rounds a) are as good as OP claims, and b) are being posted as T rounds.

post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post

What if his tournament scores had a 4 stroke range (I.e. 77 to 81), but all of his casual rounds were higher than 81? If this golfer shot in the same 4 shot range of 77 to 81 in his casual rounds, his overall handicap would lower by, what, 2 strokes maybe?

 

That's a fair point. But still, I don't find fault with the guy's casual rounds. He could just be geared to compete.

 

The more I think about it though the more I think the original post has some flaws. You can't continually beat your handicap by 3-4 strokes for very long. Your handicap catches up to you.

 

This is the point I made back on the first page.  It's impossible for him to keep shooting better than his handicap, because his handicap will keep dropping with every low round, and eventually he has to hit a wall and level out.

post #65 of 75
Thread Starter 

So here is the handicap record for 9/15/2013.  I copied it off the state association's website and edited out some of the extraneous details.  As mentioned, player Z began the year at about a 12.5 index and has worked his way down to 10.5.  With the weather starting to turn and courses aerating greens, I would expect to see the index start to rise.  It is a common pattern.  I was an 8.8 in April but got as low as 7.6 in July.  I will probably be back up around 9.0 when 2014 rolls around.  All the number crunchers can now have a go at it.  Player Z is tough come tournament time.

 

 

1

 

 09/12/13

*80

70.1

127

8.8

     

ATI

 

2

 

09/06/13

88

70.1

127

15.9

     

A I

 

3

 

08/26/13

84

68.5

117

15.0

     

A I

 

4

 

08/22/13

*86

70.9

122

14.0

   

A I c

 

5

 

08/18/13

*79

70.3

125

7.9

     

ATI

 

6

 

08/17/13

*85

70.3

125

13.3

     

ATI

 

7

 

08/16/13

86

70.3

125

14.2

     

ATI

 

8

 

08/15/13

87

70.3

125

15.1

     

A I

 

9

 

08/14/13

88

70.3

125

16.0

     

A I

 

10

 

08/06/13

88

72.5

123

14.2

       

A I

 

11

 

08/03/13

*77

67.6

120

8.9

     

ATI

 

12

 

07/31/13

*83

68.8

123

13.0

     

A I

 

13

 

07/29/13

87

68.8

123

16.7

     

A I

 

14

 

07/25/13

*77

67.6

115

9.2

     

ATI

 

15

 

07/24/13

84

67.6

115

16.1

     

A I

 

16

 

07/18/13

87

69.4

127

15.7

     

AI

 

17

 

07/16/13

*77

69.4

127

6.8

     

ATI

 

18

 

07/13/13

*84

68.8

123

14.0

     

ATI

 

19

 

07/11/13

89

70.3

129

16.4

       

A I

 

20

 

07/09/13

*85

69.5

130

13.5

     

ATI

 

are 20 scores available.  The "best" 10 (lowest differentials) were
  used to calculate the handicap index.  The calculation details follow:

                           Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
      09/12/13  80   70.1     9.9     1118.7   127     8.80         8.8 T
      08/22/13  86   70.9    15.1     1706.3   122    13.98        14.0 
      08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 T
      08/17/13  85   70.3    14.7     1661.1   125    13.28        13.3 T
      08/03/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   120     8.85         8.9 T
      07/31/13  83   68.8    14.2     1604.6   123    13.04        13.0 
      07/25/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   115     9.23         9.2 T
      07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T
      07/13/13  84   68.8    15.2     1717.6   123    13.96        14.0 T
      07/09/13  85   69.5    15.5     1751.5   130    13.47        13.5 T

                                    Add up the DIFFERENTIALs  =   109.4
                                    Multiply the sum by .096  =    10.502
                                    Drop digits beyond tenths =    10.5
                                    GAM/USGA Handicap Index   =    10.5

    Possible Reduction Due to Exceptional Tournament Play:                     

      To be eligible, a tournament score must be within the most recent        
      twenty scores or shot within the last twelve months.  

      In order for a reduction to take place, there must be at least two       
      eligible tournament scores.      

      There are 16 eligible tournament scores.

      The two "best" eligible tournament scores were used in the calculation
      of a possible Reduced Handicap Index and are shown here:

              Tourn.       Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
     07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T

 08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 
     

                                                       Average =    7.35

      The second lowest of these differentials is subtracted from the
      Handicap Index shown above:

                                 Handicap Index from Above         10.5
                                 Less 2nd Lowest Differential   -   7.9
                                                                  -----
                                                       Result =     2.6

      Since the Result is less than 3, there was NO REDUCTION.

post #66 of 75

His tournament scores are being used to calculate his handicap so I don't see why he's being called a sandbagger.  He may be guilty of using practice rounds to try out different course management strategies or take riskier shots but it isn't providing him with an advantage over the competition in terms of handicap.

post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

So here is the handicap record for 9/15/2013.  I copied it off the state association's website and edited out some of the extraneous details.  As mentioned, player Z began the year at about a 12.5 index and has worked his way down to 10.5.  With the weather starting to turn and courses aerating greens, I would expect to see the index start to rise.  It is a common pattern.  I was an 8.8 in April but got as low as 7.6 in July.  I will probably be back up around 9.0 when 2014 rolls around.  All the number crunchers can now have a go at it.  Player Z is tough come tournament time.

 

 

1

 

 09/12/13

*80

70.1

127

8.8

     

ATI

 

2

 

09/06/13

88

70.1

127

15.9

     

A I

 

3

 

08/26/13

84

68.5

117

15.0

     

A I

 

4

 

08/22/13

*86

70.9

122

14.0

   

A I c

 

5

 

08/18/13

*79

70.3

125

7.9

     

ATI

 

6

 

08/17/13

*85

70.3

125

13.3

     

ATI

 

7

 

08/16/13

86

70.3

125

14.2

     

ATI

 

8

 

08/15/13

87

70.3

125

15.1

     

A I

 

9

 

08/14/13

88

70.3

125

16.0

     

A I

 

10

 

08/06/13

88

72.5

123

14.2

       

A I

 

11

 

08/03/13

*77

67.6

120

8.9

     

ATI

 

12

 

07/31/13

*83

68.8

123

13.0

     

A I

 

13

 

07/29/13

87

68.8

123

16.7

     

A I

 

14

 

07/25/13

*77

67.6

115

9.2

     

ATI

 

15

 

07/24/13

84

67.6

115

16.1

     

A I

 

16

 

07/18/13

87

69.4

127

15.7

     

AI

 

17

 

07/16/13

*77

69.4

127

6.8

     

ATI

 

18

 

07/13/13

*84

68.8

123

14.0

     

ATI

 

19

 

07/11/13

89

70.3

129

16.4

       

A I

 

20

 

07/09/13

*85

69.5

130

13.5

     

ATI

 

are 20 scores available.  The "best" 10 (lowest differentials) were
  used to calculate the handicap index.  The calculation details follow:

                           Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
      09/12/13  80   70.1     9.9     1118.7   127     8.80         8.8 T
      08/22/13  86   70.9    15.1     1706.3   122    13.98        14.0 
      08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 T
      08/17/13  85   70.3    14.7     1661.1   125    13.28        13.3 T
      08/03/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   120     8.85         8.9 T
      07/31/13  83   68.8    14.2     1604.6   123    13.04        13.0 
      07/25/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   115     9.23         9.2 T
      07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T
      07/13/13  84   68.8    15.2     1717.6   123    13.96        14.0 T
      07/09/13  85   69.5    15.5     1751.5   130    13.47        13.5 T

                                    Add up the DIFFERENTIALs  =   109.4
                                    Multiply the sum by .096  =    10.502
                                    Drop digits beyond tenths =    10.5
                                    GAM/USGA Handicap Index   =    10.5

    Possible Reduction Due to Exceptional Tournament Play:                     

      To be eligible, a tournament score must be within the most recent        
      twenty scores or shot within the last twelve months.  

      In order for a reduction to take place, there must be at least two       
      eligible tournament scores.      

      There are 16 eligible tournament scores.

      The two "best" eligible tournament scores were used in the calculation
      of a possible Reduced Handicap Index and are shown here:

              Tourn.       Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
     07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T

 08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 
     

                                                       Average =    7.35

      The second lowest of these differentials is subtracted from the
      Handicap Index shown above:

                                 Handicap Index from Above         10.5
                                 Less 2nd Lowest Differential   -   7.9
                                                                  -----
                                                       Result =     2.6

      Since the Result is less than 3, there was NO REDUCTION.

 

That score pattern dos not look suspicious to me.  He may play his best rounds in tournaments, but that is because he plays a lot of tournament rounds.  He also has some less than stellar rounds in tournament play.

post #68 of 75

See, even his tournament play isn't "exceptional" enough to warrant a reduction in his handicap.

 

He plays enough tournaments that it's not even really possible for him to sandbag.

post #69 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

So here is the handicap record for 9/15/2013.  I copied it off the state association's website and edited out some of the extraneous details.  As mentioned, player Z began the year at about a 12.5 index and has worked his way down to 10.5.  With the weather starting to turn and courses aerating greens, I would expect to see the index start to rise.  It is a common pattern.  I was an 8.8 in April but got as low as 7.6 in July.  I will probably be back up around 9.0 when 2014 rolls around.  All the number crunchers can now have a go at it.  Player Z is tough come tournament time.

 

 

1

 

 09/12/13

*80

70.1

127

8.8

     

ATI

 

2

 

09/06/13

88

70.1

127

15.9

     

A I

 

3

 

08/26/13

84

68.5

117

15.0

     

A I

 

4

 

08/22/13

*86

70.9

122

14.0

   

A I c

 

5

 

08/18/13

*79

70.3

125

7.9

     

ATI

 

6

 

08/17/13

*85

70.3

125

13.3

     

ATI

 

7

 

08/16/13

86

70.3

125

14.2

     

ATI

 

8

 

08/15/13

87

70.3

125

15.1

     

A I

 

9

 

08/14/13

88

70.3

125

16.0

     

A I

 

10

 

08/06/13

88

72.5

123

14.2

       

A I

 

11

 

08/03/13

*77

67.6

120

8.9

     

ATI

 

12

 

07/31/13

*83

68.8

123

13.0

     

A I

 

13

 

07/29/13

87

68.8

123

16.7

     

A I

 

14

 

07/25/13

*77

67.6

115

9.2

     

ATI

 

15

 

07/24/13

84

67.6

115

16.1

     

A I

 

16

 

07/18/13

87

69.4

127

15.7

     

AI

 

17

 

07/16/13

*77

69.4

127

6.8

     

ATI

 

18

 

07/13/13

*84

68.8

123

14.0

     

ATI

 

19

 

07/11/13

89

70.3

129

16.4

       

A I

 

20

 

07/09/13

*85

69.5

130

13.5

     

ATI

 

are 20 scores available.  The "best" 10 (lowest differentials) were
  used to calculate the handicap index.  The calculation details follow:

                           Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
      09/12/13  80   70.1     9.9     1118.7   127     8.80         8.8 T
      08/22/13  86   70.9    15.1     1706.3   122    13.98        14.0 
      08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 T
      08/17/13  85   70.3    14.7     1661.1   125    13.28        13.3 T
      08/03/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   120     8.85         8.9 T
      07/31/13  83   68.8    14.2     1604.6   123    13.04        13.0 
      07/25/13  77   67.6     9.4     1062.2   115     9.23         9.2 T
      07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T
      07/13/13  84   68.8    15.2     1717.6   123    13.96        14.0 T
      07/09/13  85   69.5    15.5     1751.5   130    13.47        13.5 T

                                    Add up the DIFFERENTIALs  =   109.4
                                    Multiply the sum by .096  =    10.502
                                    Drop digits beyond tenths =    10.5
                                    GAM/USGA Handicap Index   =    10.5

    Possible Reduction Due to Exceptional Tournament Play:                     

      To be eligible, a tournament score must be within the most recent        
      twenty scores or shot within the last twelve months.  

      In order for a reduction to take place, there must be at least two       
      eligible tournament scores.      

      There are 16 eligible tournament scores.

      The two "best" eligible tournament scores were used in the calculation
      of a possible Reduced Handicap Index and are shown here:

              Tourn.       Subtract  Multiply       Divide by  (Round Off)
        Date  Score Rating  Rating    by 113  Slope   Slope    Differential
     07/16/13  77   69.4     7.6      858.8   127     6.76         6.8  T

 08/18/13  79   70.3     8.7      983.1   125     7.86         7.9 
     

                                                       Average =    7.35

      The second lowest of these differentials is subtracted from the
      Handicap Index shown above:

                                 Handicap Index from Above         10.5
                                 Less 2nd Lowest Differential   -   7.9
                                                                  -----
                                                       Result =     2.6

      Since the Result is less than 3, there was NO REDUCTION.

 

 

If thias is the guy you were talking about when you started the thread, he is not a sandbagger. He also happens to have a lot of T scores and none of them reduce him automatically.

post #70 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

 

And I feel like intent matters here.

 

If, during a casual round he thinks to himself "I'm going to try and cut this corner because even though its risky, I believe I can do it, and if I pull it off it will lead to an easy birdie," in my view there is no problem.

 

On the other hand, if he says things like "f**k it, I'm gonna pull a Happy Gilmore here and see how far I can hit it because if I get stuck in the trees its better for my handicap so who cares" then I think you can call him a sandbagger.

 

This.

post #71 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Quick tip:  You know who you are talking to because you just read their post, however, if its not the most recent post, it's hard for us to tell who you are talking to.  Please use the "quote" feature at the bottom right of the post you are referencing you we can tell what you mean.

 

Also, since you're new, here's a few other quick tips ...http://thesandtrap.com/t/69379/newbie-helpers-little-things-everyone-expects-and-asks-of-users/0_30

 

And, welcome!

 

P.S.  Your opinion holds no water in this thread as you are, admittedly, the number one sandbagger. :-P


Golfingdad, thank you for your response and advise. I've been on college football message boards but not golf before. Let me say I have waited until our advertising campaign was up and running on The Sand Trap.com. before answering you. I hope in the future it will "hold water" with you and others on this board. (I'm a retired urologist)  If Dean Knuth is the Pope of Slope, I hope to go down as the anti-Christ of sandbagging and try to use peer pressure to slow it down if not eradicate it. When you view our ad take the time to look at it and our website. We feel it's enjoyable on at least two levels-zinging the serious sandbagger and giving a poke to a friend or buddy who just keeps on winning.

SandbaggerOne

post #72 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandbagger0ne View Post
 


Golfingdad, thank you for your response and advise. I've been on college football message boards but not golf before. Let me say I have waited until our advertising campaign was up and running on The Sand Trap.com. before answering you. I hope in the future it will "hold water" with you and others on this board. (I'm a retired urologist)  If Dean Knuth is the Pope of Slope, I hope to go down as the anti-Christ of sandbagging and try to use peer pressure to slow it down if not eradicate it. When you view our ad take the time to look at it and our website. We feel it's enjoyable on at least two levels-zinging the serious sandbagger and giving a poke to a friend or buddy who just keeps on winning.

SandbaggerOne

What ad campaign?

 

And if I have to ask, it clearly isn't working...:-\

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