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Finchem says PGA Tour is "studying" Call-in Rules Violations - Page 5

Poll Results: How do you feel about viewers and spectators calling in rules violations?

 
  • 22% (19)
    Agree with it, always have.
  • 1% (1)
    Agree with it, disagreed before.
  • 6% (5)
    Disagree with it, but agreed before.
  • 69% (58)
    Disagree with it, always have.
83 Total Votes  
post #73 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

 does the official saying, "If you say it oscillated, then carry on my son." also fall under rule 34-2/2 above?

Although I doubt a referee would use those words, it would fall under 34-2/2.

post #74 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

 But if the official did not see one way or the other, or if Tiger called the official over after the fact and Tiger said he thought it oscillated, then the same two strokes from video? 

 

If the official did not see it, he should advise the player to report the incident to the committee before returning his card.

post #75 of 202

I voted disagree, and always have. I didn't vote that way to disregard the truth, as has been suggested above, but for another reason. Turns out to be a looooong reason. Sorry for that. 

 

It seems that we're wanting two different things with regards to rule violations. First, the main thing that is always brought up is that golf is a gentleman's game, and the players are supposed to have honor and be ethical enough to call a rules violation on themselves. That's all well and good, but what exactly is a Gentleman, and does he really exist in this day and age- with regards to the PGA and other pro tours? A Gentleman was of a certain class of person, and for a Gentleman to lose his honor meant everything in his society. Of course this was reflected in the class of people who played the game of golf in those days. A Gentleman was honorable and did not take advantage of fellow Gentlemen. If a Gentleman was caught not calling a penalty on himself, his loss was not the loss of 2 strokes. It was the true loss of honor, which lead to personal derision from fellow Gentlemen, castigation within the group, and possible expulsion from the group. He didn't just lose a few strokes during a tournament, he would not be invited to play with the Gentlemen in the future. In fact, he was not a Gentleman any more.

 

Today, the elite touring pro's are young (and middle aged) athletes. They may be nice guys, but I don't think you could call them Gentlemen by any true definition of the word. Would anyone really call Sergio a Gentleman after spitting in a hole? Or Tiger, for that matter, after hearing all of the F-bombs he drops on the course? Of course not. They are playing the game for potentially millions of dollars, and every stroke could cost thousands of dollars. What does it really mean to their 'honor' to have a penalty called on them? They come back the next week and play again, and they think little of the penalty other than the loss of strokes. "That was last week. I have to put it behind me and play my best this week for blah blah sponsor". 

 

So we want it both ways. We say we expect the Gentlemen of golf to have honor and call their own violations, but we also look to catch them in a falsehood so we can penalize them. I don't think it can be both ways, truth or not. If we truly believe in the history and traditions of the game, and expect it to be a self policing sport, which we are proud to say to all of the other refereed sports, Then that is what it must be. 

 

However, if a rules violation is discovered after the fact, and it is not called by the player, the discovery should not change the outcome of the contest in progress, but should affect the violators participation in future events. This should be made well known. If a player does a dishonorable thing during a tournament, he does not participate in a certain number of future events. This may make players call in rules officials at every circumstance that is not a clear cut call, and may possibly slow the game down, but its what we are asking for, so we should accept it as part of the game. 

 

Last, if we agree that they (we) are truly not Gentlemen players with the honor to call violations on ourselves with no second guessing, then we need more officials to watch them (us) just like any other sport. I don't think you can have it both ways. 

 

My opinion, anyway. For the Tiger example, I can't say what he saw with his own eyes in real time at real speed. I know my eyes are not all that good ( I know his are supposed to be), and I could see my ball wiggle and think it didn't move enough to matter, but  TV camera in super slo-mo may see the 1/16" drop and 5 degree rotation. Meh. For those who asked- what if the ball moved 2-3" and Tiger said it didn't, but was caught after? As stated above, he's labeled as dishonorable and a cheater and not invited to participate in future events. Expulsion from the group. Pariah. Leper, Outcast, Unclean.

post #76 of 202

Yes Tiger has a larger crowd following him, more cameras etc.  Comes with the territory of being the #1 player in the world and possibly the best player of all time.  He's under more scrutiny and well compensated for it ;-)

post #77 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

Yes Tiger has a larger crowd following him, more cameras etc.  Comes with the territory of being the #1 player in the world and possibly the best player of all time.  He's under more scrutiny and well compensated for it ;-)

 

Being #1 doesn't mean the rules should be enforced or applied to you any differently than the rest of the field

 

Warning, the following analogy is a bit dramatic. 

 

We all at times exceed the speed limit, push a yellow light or slowly roll through a stop sign at an slow intersection.  We know the traffic laws but we're human and sometimes we unintentionally break them.  Under normal circumstances we all have the chance of being caught for such a violation but the odds are in our favor to not be caught and handed a ticket.

 

What if your local police department decided to assign a patrol car or helicopter to follow you 24/7 while you drove, writing you a ticket for every infraction they witness while your neighbors who are notorious for running stop signs and speeding continued to get away with them because they weren't being followed by a patrol car.  I get that you deserve every ticket they wrote and that it's best for society that every law broken is punished but I still think you'd feel harassed or singled out.

 

Ultimately Tiger was lazy, stupid or really didn't think the ball moved because he knows he's being followed by large galleries and cameras.  He also knows because of his past indiscretions there are a lot of people that would enjoy calling in a rules violation that could get him disqualified.  The fact is he and a few others face much stiffer enforcement of the rules than the rest of the field.

post #78 of 202

It all comes down to intent.  If the PGATour believes that players are intentionally cheating in anyway, then they should take over the rules aspect of the game completely in one way or another.  Otherwise, there should be no call ins and we should take a player at his/her word.  What a player sees in the heat of competition VS what a zoomed in HD camera captures is totally different.  If a player can't see the violation or doesn't think of it, then is it a violation anyways?  If the answer is "yes" then the rules process should be taken away from the player all together and regulated by the tour with any means they see fit, but in REAL TIME.

post #79 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Warning, the following analogy is a bit dramatic.

 

It is.

 

After all, police already do things like this: they patrol for speeding more heavily on high drinking holidays, they target specific areas known for speeding, etc. To be truly "fair" they would randomly look for speeding everywhere there are roads.

 

Plus, your example would make more sense if the police were paying us a few million dollars per year. I'd gladly take the tradeoff of setting my cruise control a few MPH under the speed limit if someone wants to pay me to do it. Heck, give me $500/month and I'll never speed again*.

 

* Currently I set my cruise at about 3 MPH over the speed limit. Any slower and I feel like I'll be causing more potential accidents than technically going a little faster to stay more with the general flow.

post #80 of 202

I voted agreed, always have.

 

I have not read every post in this thread but agree with those who point out that golf, to a large extent, is a self policing game.  When this breaks down, the integrity of the game is called into question and it would certainly hurt the PGA Tour's overall reputation if obvious rules violations were spotted on TV without penalties being assessed.

 

With that said, I think rules need to adapt to modern technology.  

 

i.e. Suppose, 10 years from now, high tech cameras existed that showed that 50% or more of golf balls moved every so slightly before being struck- the movement is not visible to the naked eye, but could be proved with the new high tech cameras.   

 

If this was the case, then I think the ball moving rule would need to be amended- sure, it is more black and white to have a bright line rule that says any movement= penalty and no movement= no penalty, but if the majority (or even a significant minority) of balls are shown to move ever so slightly, then the rule would need to be re-written to account for this.  Even now, some might argue that we should not penalize unintentional movement that is less than a ball and does not result in an improved lie.  

 

Edit- Going to the speeding examples, if modern technology could show every instance of when someone was 0.1 mph over the speed limit, then it would make sense to have a certain grace margin built into the law before tickets were issued.

post #81 of 202
Thread Starter 

Quick poll update.  After 1.5 days, polling seems about the same as the prior thread from two years ago, albeit with about one-third of the sample size so far.  Roughly 73.6% don't like call-ins, and 26.3% prefer it allowed.  So far, only 2 people have changed their mind over the past few years.

 

Assuming there is no movement or change on this in the near future (I'm fairly certain there won't be, mostly because of the rules of golf conflict), I'm curious to see where we will be in 5 and 10 years from now when people are attempting to tweet in rules violations to a designated rules violation review account.  I could imagine some poor guy sitting there reading hundreds of tweets about Fowler "grounding" his club in a hazard and Tiger making an illegal drop.  Ha!

post #82 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

Yes Tiger has a larger crowd following him, more cameras etc.  Comes with the territory of being the #1 player in the world and possibly the best player of all time.  He's under more scrutiny and well compensated for it ;-)

You mean they pay him to play golf?!!!  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1762653-tiger-woods-complete-earnings-per-tournament-round-and-hole-revealed

 

"At the midway point of the FedEx Cup playoffs following last week's Deutsche Bank Championship, Woods has made an average of $8,637 per hole, $155,000 per round and $588,000 per tournament."

 

Let's see now.  His scoring average in 2013 is 68.87.  That means he makes $2250 per stroke.  If I were him, I would welcome two stroke penalties!  (this is the way Congress does math BTW).

post #83 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It is.

 

After all, police already do things like this: they patrol for speeding more heavily on high drinking holidays, they target specific areas known for speeding, etc. To be truly "fair" they would randomly look for speeding everywhere there are roads.

 

Plus, your example would make more sense if the police were paying us a few million dollars per year. I'd gladly take the tradeoff of setting my cruise control a few MPH under the speed limit if someone wants to pay me to do it. Heck, give me $500/month and I'll never speed again*.

 

* Currently I set my cruise at about 3 MPH over the speed limit. Any slower and I feel like I'll be causing more potential accidents than technically going a little faster to stay more with the general flow.

The comparable analogy would be the PGA selecting specific holes to monitor every golfer, which I'd be happy to see implemented, but is not happening today.  Instead we have 100's cameras and 1000's of people watching Tiger and at best a few cameras and people watching some of the other players.

 

Money has nothing to do with it, the rules are the rules and everyone is expected to follow them.  Rory makes a lot more than a large portion of the field and he doesn't endure the same level of scrutiny (unless he's in contention) that Tiger seems to.

post #84 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

 

Being #1 doesn't mean the rules should be enforced or applied to you any differently than the rest of the field

 

Warning, the following analogy is a bit dramatic. 

 

We all at times exceed the speed limit, push a yellow light or slowly roll through a stop sign at an slow intersection.  We know the traffic laws but we're human and sometimes we unintentionally break them.  Under normal circumstances we all have the chance of being caught for such a violation but the odds are in our favor to not be caught and handed a ticket.

 

What if your local police department decided to assign a patrol car or helicopter to follow you 24/7 while you drove, writing you a ticket for every infraction they witness while your neighbors who are notorious for running stop signs and speeding continued to get away with them because they weren't being followed by a patrol car.  I get that you deserve every ticket they wrote and that it's best for society that every law broken is punished but I still think you'd feel harassed or singled out.

 

Ultimately Tiger was lazy, stupid or really didn't think the ball moved because he knows he's being followed by large galleries and cameras.  He also knows because of his past indiscretions there are a lot of people that would enjoy calling in a rules violation that could get him disqualified.  The fact is he and a few others face much stiffer enforcement of the rules than the rest of the field.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It is.

 

After all, police already do things like this: they patrol for speeding more heavily on high drinking holidays, they target specific areas known for speeding, etc. To be truly "fair" they would randomly look for speeding everywhere there are roads.

 

Plus, your example would make more sense if the police were paying us a few million dollars per year. I'd gladly take the tradeoff of setting my cruise control a few MPH under the speed limit if someone wants to pay me to do it. Heck, give me $500/month and I'll never speed again*.

 

* Currently I set my cruise at about 3 MPH over the speed limit. Any slower and I feel like I'll be causing more potential accidents than technically going a little faster to stay more with the general flow.

The reason why I posted some other sports analogies and not law analogies is because I think there is one giant fundamental difference; it's not a competition.  I am 100% on board with the idea of catching every possible law infraction regardless of "fairness."  If a policeman misses that guy speeding over there it has no bearing on me DIRECTLY.  None whatsoever ... because we are not in a competition.  If he catches me committing an infraction during a golf tournament, but doesn't catch that guy over there (because he wasn't on camera) it absolutely affects me directly.

post #85 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

If a policeman misses that guy speeding over there it has no bearing on me DIRECTLY.  None whatsoever ... because we are not in a competition.  If he catches me committing an infraction during a golf tournament, but doesn't catch that guy over there (because he wasn't on camera) it absolutely affects me directly.

 

Your home may be robbed because a policeman was somewhere else. You may finish T41 instead of T39 because someone elsewhere might commit a penalty that goes unnoticed.

post #86 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Your home may be robbed because a policeman was somewhere else.

Well, that is never not going to be true because a policeman has never (and I surely hope) will never be staking out my house in case of a robbery. ;)

 

But as far as the analogy goes, the "competitors" would be the burglars, and my point still stands.  If the burglars do not get caught breaking into my house, it doesn't hurt burglars breaking into a house across town.

 

And, yes, I get your point that in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal if a guy finishes 41st instead of 39th.  Although, if it's 2nd instead of 1st, thats a different story.  Or if the guy ends up missing out on top125 because of 5k or something, etc, etc.

 

Life isn't fair and I totally agree, however, I also believe that sports have to be on a level playing field.  (Not necessarily "fair" because good and bad bounces happen, but it should be equitable)

post #87 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Well, that is never not going to be true because a policeman has never (and I surely hope) will never be staking out my house in case of a robbery. ;)

 

They might be patrolling your streets more or less frequently. And yes, this is getting ridiculous now, but it's still mildly fun, so I'm rollin' with it. :)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

But as far as the analogy goes, the "competitors" would be the burglars, and my point still stands.  If the burglars do not get caught breaking into my house, it doesn't hurt burglars breaking into a house across town.

 

It helps the other burglars across town if a policeman is watching your house and/or arresting a burglar or responding to a 911 call, etc. There are only so many cameras. If they're on one player, they're less likely to be on another player. Just like the finite number of police officers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

And, yes, I get your point that in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal if a guy finishes 41st instead of 39th.  Although, if it's 2nd instead of 1st, thats a different story.  Or if the guy ends up missing out on top125 because of 5k or something, etc, etc.

 

The people at the top of the leaderboard are on TV. So the odds of it happening at a level that we "care" about "more" is greatly diminished.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Life isn't fair and I totally agree, however, I also believe that sports have to be on a level playing field.  (Not necessarily "fair" because good and bad bounces happen, but it should be equitable)

 

So you're okay with letting known rules infractions - in golf, not in other sports - go unpunished.

 

Because, quite literally, that's as simple as it is for me. If a rule is violated, then that's the truth, and the committee, the golfers, the officials, etc. should be on board with making the competition results as close as possible to representing the truth as is possible.

 

Additionally, nobody's answered my question yet: how many actual call-in rules violations have been assessed on the PGA Tour in the last year? 3 years? 5 years? 10? It's a rather small number, and this is much ado about nothing.

post #88 of 202
Quote:

 

So you're okay with letting known rules infractions - in golf, not in other sports - go unpunished.

 

Because, quite literally, that's as simple as it is for me. If a rule is violated, then that's the truth, and the committee, the golfers, the officials, etc. should be on board with making the competition results as close as possible to representing the truth as is possible.

 

Additionally, nobody's answered my question yet: how many actual call-in rules violations have been assessed on the PGA Tour in the last year? 3 years? 5 years? 10? It's a rather small number, and this is much ado about nothing.

I'm in favor of equal application of the rules.  I'd favor a system whereby every hole on the course had cameras to watched everything the golfer did and ensure they didn't violate the rules.

 

I'm also okay with going with the trust system in place and disallowing call-in or outside influences to result in penalties.  I'm not okay with Tiger and D.A. Points committing the same rule violation and only Tiger getting penalized because he had 100 more cameras following him and his every action was being broadcast on television. 

post #89 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

And yes, this is getting ridiculous now

Just now? :-P

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

but it's still mildly fun, so I'm rollin' with it. :)

Exactly. :banana:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It helps the other burglars across town if a policeman is watching your house and/or arresting a burglar or responding to a 911 call, etc. There are only so many cameras. If they're on one player, they're less likely to be on another player. Just like the finite number of police officers.

Fair enough.  I will concede that putt.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

The people at the top of the leaderboard are on TV. So the odds of it happening at a level that we "care" about "more" is greatly diminished.

I've agreed with you since you first mentioned this but haven't said it out loud yet.  The discrepancy in the fairness as it relates to golfers randomly really only applies to Thursday and Friday.  On the weekend, all of the leaders are basically under the same microscope.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

So you're okay with letting known rules infractions - in golf, not in other sports - go unpunished.

No, I'm not.  I just don't like the idea of the non TV guys getting free passes (Thursday and Friday).  I don't know what to do about it (probably nothing) but I think it's unfair.

 

Quote:

Because, quite literally, that's as simple as it is for me. If a rule is violated, then that's the truth, and the committee, the golfers, the officials, etc. should be on board with making the competition results as close as possible to representing the truth as is possible.

Duly noted.  You are not wrong.

 

Quote:

Additionally, nobody's answered my question yet: how many actual call-in rules violations have been assessed on the PGA Tour in the last year? 3 years? 5 years? 10? It's a rather small number, and this is much ado about nothing.

Yeah, I already mentioned this above ... I feel duped here because the fact that Finchem came out with this statement, and the the fact that TGC did a whole piece on it, complete with interviews of players talking specifically about Tiger's penalty, made it quite clear that they were implying that this penalty to Tiger was a result of a call-in.

 

Now if you will excuse me ... I have to sneak out of work early to go play golf. :)

post #90 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I'm also okay with going with the trust system in place and disallowing call-in or outside influences to result in penalties.  I'm not okay with Tiger and D.A. Points committing the same rule violation and only Tiger getting penalized because he had 100 more cameras following him and his every action was being broadcast on television. 

 

Then you are in favor of a competition which does not resemble the truth as closely as possible.

 

Again, it's that simple (to me).

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