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Everyone is a Feel Player - Page 3

post #37 of 66
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

So, as an instructor, how do you determine what feel you should be encouraging in each individual?  Or is it more......."that's the way the swing should look, tell me what you're feeling and we'll work to repeat that feel."?

 

Honestly, it varies by the student. Some of them have past experiences. Some of them do the latter thing you said - "It feels like you want me to… (whatever)". Some of them we'll say six or seven things and one of them will stick (in those cases I've often pre-emptively told the student what the mechanics are, but that any feels we try will be to see which "click" best, but to know that they're all attempting to produce the same result - just because we say a second or third or fourth "feel" doesn't mean we're saying to ALSO do that feel, but rather to try it instead.).

 

Some people have very little body awareness. They're sometimes the most difficult people to teach. If you're working on decreasing flex in their trail knee, they might snap it straight right away, or keep it flexed really long then snap it straight at the end, perhaps. It can be a mess. They'll often have to ask you "did I do it?" and it's tough, because they basically lack "feel" (body awareness) so producing proper mechanics from these types is difficult. Nowhere near impossible, but it requires more thought and effort.

post #38 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Honestly, it varies by the student. Some of them have past experiences. Some of them do the latter thing you said - "It feels like you want me to… (whatever)". Some of them we'll say six or seven things and one of them will stick (in those cases I've often pre-emptively told the student what the mechanics are, but that any feels we try will be to see which "click" best, but to know that they're all attempting to produce the same result - just because we say a second or third or fourth "feel" doesn't mean we're saying to ALSO do that feel, but rather to try it instead.).

 

Some people have very little body awareness. They're sometimes the most difficult people to teach. If you're working on decreasing flex in their trail knee, they might snap it straight right away, or keep it flexed really long then snap it straight at the end, perhaps. It can be a mess. They'll often have to ask you "did I do it?" and it's tough, because they basically lack "feel" (body awareness) so producing proper mechanics from these types is difficult. Nowhere near impossible, but it requires more thought and effort.

I think this is what can make it difficult while doing a swing change.  James has me working on having my right elbow lower than my left at A5 without dropping my right shoulder to help flatten the shaft angle.  I am coming in too steep and a bit over the top.  I am doing a lot of mirror work.  It has taken me about 10 sessions in front of the mirror to align the correct position with how my right arm/elbow feels when properly done.  I haven't really done any full speed swings yet and only one range session with slow, specific swings.  I want to get the feeling down so I know how to get it correct without the mirror.

post #39 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

So, as an instructor, how do you determine what feel you should be encouraging in each individual?  Or is it more......."that's the way the swing should look, tell me what you're feeling and we'll work to repeat that feel."?

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Honestly, it varies by the student. Some of them have past experiences. Some of them do the latter thing you said - "It feels like you want me to… (whatever)". Some of them we'll say six or seven things and one of them will stick (in those cases I've often pre-emptively told the student what the mechanics are, but that any feels we try will be to see which "click" best, but to know that they're all attempting to produce the same result - just because we say a second or third or fourth "feel" doesn't mean we're saying to ALSO do that feel, but rather to try it instead.).

 

Exactly, no problem with a little trial and error to find what the best feel is for the student.  Some golfers you can just say "do this" and they can reproduce it.

 

One of the signs of a really good instructor is having multiple feels that people can relate to.  Like the "crush a ball under your left foot", instantly creates an image and a feel that people are familiar with.

post #40 of 66

I think it's a great thread.  (Even if it does degrade to the same semantics stuff the other one did)

 

I'll contend (agree) that everyone is both a feel and a mechanics players.  (as noted we have to be both)

 

I like to think about the physics and the mechanics, I hope to apply this to my shot execution, I know how far each club flies with full and partial swings.  I calibrate my swing and execution by "feel" and try to dial it in by matching the right 'feel' to the outcome of my practice.  I try to duplicate that feel.  There is no such thing as just 'plug and chug' any shot.

 

So those people that fancy themselves as pure 'feel' types will call me mechanical (or overly thoughtful).

The rest will accuse me of being a 'feel' player.

 

 

the best/worst part of the other thread was:

 

self proclaimed "feel" players strawmanning that 'mechanical players' were mindless automatons with little long term ability to have talent and inability to deal with non-standard situations (a self serving mischaracterization)

 

self proclaimed "mech" players strawmanning that "feel" players were thoughtless and guessed on every shot or just lucked out by happenstance to find a consistent shot (a self serving mischaracterization)

 

 

 

IMO?  we all do both - probably to the same extent - and we likely just identify with whatever term we subjectively find more flattering

 

 

 

Quote:
One of the signs of a really good instructor is having multiple feels that people can relate to.

This is a sign of an excellent instructor - having many ways to get something across.  Crappy instructors can only speak their personal anecdotes - then they repeat them ad nauseum and complain the student doesn't 'get it'.  Great instructors will 'read' the student and then try different ways to get the right performance out of their students.  I teach in another sport - I find it super useful to trade info and techniques with many instructors so I have a large pool of various options that have proven results.  Each student is unique - finding what works "for the student" is always the goal.  NOT - forcing the student to use what worked for others when they clearly don't match that method.

post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Some people have very little body awareness. They're sometimes the most difficult people to teach. If you're working on decreasing flex in their trail knee, they might snap it straight right away, or keep it flexed really long then snap it straight at the end, perhaps. It can be a mess. They'll often have to ask you "did I do it?" and it's tough, because they basically lack "feel" (body awareness) so producing proper mechanics from these types is difficult. Nowhere near impossible, but it requires more thought and effort.

 

 

I think this hits the nail on the head with regards to "FEEL."  It's more likely a matter of "Body Awareness."  A lot of times I can feel when I'm out of position during the swing and I can compensate for it.  Or if I can't compensate enough, at least I am aware of what went wrong and why.  Some people have no awareness of that.

 

I played a round of golf with a guy that kept referring to my "feel" during the round.  I asked him what he meant by that thinking specifically about this thread.  He said it had to do with my ability to pull off creative touchy feely shots around the greens and inside of 100 yards.  Varying trajectory, spin, and even clubs used to hit them.  About that time, he stopped the cart 70 yards from a green with the pin in the middle.  He dropped 3 balls and said, "Hit 3 shots, one high, one low with spin, and one low that runs out to the pin" and I chose 3 different clubs and hit all 3 shots within 10 feet and all looked different.  He replied, "I can't do that.  All I've got for that shot is a high L wedge."

 

So good, bad, or indifferent I think the body awareness is the key to "feel."

post #42 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
 

 

 

I think this hits the nail on the head with regards to "FEEL."  It's more likely a matter of "Body Awareness."  A lot of times I can feel when I'm out of position during the swing and I can compensate for it.  Or if I can't compensate enough, at least I am aware of what went wrong and why.  Some people have no awareness of that.

 

I played a round of golf with a guy that kept referring to my "feel" during the round.  I asked him what he meant by that thinking specifically about this thread.  He said it had to do with my ability to pull off creative touchy feely shots around the greens and inside of 100 yards.  Varying trajectory, spin, and even clubs used to hit them.  About that time, he stopped the cart 70 yards from a green with the pin in the middle.  He dropped 3 balls and said, "Hit 3 shots, one high, one low with spin, and one low that runs out to the pin" and I chose 3 different clubs and hit all 3 shots within 10 feet and all looked different.  He replied, "I can't do that.  All I've got for that shot is a high L wedge."

 

So good, bad, or indifferent I think the body awareness is the key to "feel."

 

 

Actually that is subconscious hand eye coordination. Once you start the downswing, it is impossible to reroute the club from its path. The downswing happens to fast for you to mentally register, "Oh I am out of position, Oh I need to do this, Execute".  What happens is the hands want to put club to ball, that is your minds overall focus. So they will adapt to what your eyes are seeing, and this is why people flip at the ball if there head starts moving backwards.

post #43 of 66

Very very well said.  This is why I have always encouraged my student to learn mechanics by hitting shots which produce those mechanics.  For example if my student is rolling their wrists open during the back swing causing a very open face at impact I will try to get them to hit some closed face cuts.  I tell them how it should work mechanically but then give them a shot to hit which will ingrain the feeling of doing it successfully.

post #44 of 66

How easily can you remember and duplicate the 'feel' which gave you that great result?  Here is one of the larger problems when teaching older folks these mechanical, motor,  skills. Kids can easily accept, and duplicate, any action: a great blessing of youth. Which of course is why some kids, in some fields, can compete with equally skilled older performers. Am thinking golf and music, esp. The kids can accept the 'feel' as correct so much easier than the adult

post #45 of 66

i have to agree feel produces mechanics.

I have always posted Im a "feel" player.

often when i start thinking about mechanics, its  when Im tired near the end of a round or not fully stretched out before I play.

It amazing what a simple stretching exercise can do for your round and endurance.

post #46 of 66

This is a good post. Feel and mechanics really go hand in hand. I consider myself a feel player, but I have considerable knowledge relating to the physics and mechanics of the golf swing.  Therefore, I can analyze my swing (videos) and get into ideal positions since I understand what they are, and then that's where feel kicks in and I feel what it's like to be in that position and swing a certain way. 

 

As for my short game with a wedge, that's probably where I am the least mechanical. I experiment to try and hit different shots producing different results that sometimes leave my friends and even myself wondering, "How did he/I do that?".  I have videoed some things I have done with a wedge, and the swing and/or grip aren't close to what you'd call mechanical.  I love using my 60* wedge and pretty much use it for everything 90 yards and in.  One day I was hitting low, knee high, punch-type shots, when practicing chipping, with a lot of spin that would stop pretty quickly. I wasn't trying to do it; my swing that day just produced it. I haven't been able to do it since then. :(

post #47 of 66

after reading countless threads on this, I've decided the terms "feel" and "mechanical" have such widely divergent and subjective definitions amongst even the best players, let alone the whole population of golfers.....

 

that any discussion on it is absolutely pointless

 

and.....that any instructor able to be flexible and knowledgeable enough to understand what each individual different student needs to hear in one on one basis to get success ..... and then does just that and gives those students success.....is worth a lot.

 

i.e., call it whatever you like.....if you get results....congrats

 

not surprised - I'm not complaining, it's just how most discussions like this seem to turn out

post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wally View Post
 

As for my short game with a wedge, that's probably where I am the least mechanical. I experiment to try and hit different shots producing different results that sometimes leave my friends and even myself wondering, "How did he/I do that?".  I have videoed some things I have done with a wedge, and the swing and/or grip aren't close to what you'd call mechanical.

 

Quantum golf! :w00t: 

post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by rehmwa View Post
 

after reading countless threads on this, I've decided the terms "feel" and "mechanical" have such widely divergent and subjective definitions amongst even the best players, let alone the whole population of golfers.....

 

that any discussion on it is absolutely pointless

 

I disagree discussion is pointless.  Purpose of this thread is to illustrate that even if you are "mechanical" you need employ some feel in order produce the mechanics.

post #50 of 66

When you ride a bicycle, is it "feel" or "mechanical"? A golf swing I think could be compared the same way.

post #51 of 66

Great thread!

 

I used to refer to body awareness as spatial awareness ie where the brain perceives the body is in space. The classic example of this is the guy that over swings, you show him his over swing on vid and ask him to do a shorter backswing (or what he imagines is a shorter backswing), it's almost guaranteed that his shorter backswing video will be vastly different from what he "felt" he did. 

 

Here's another thought:

 

You've heard the saying golf is 90% mental.

 

What's the other 10%?

post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
 

He dropped 3 balls and said, "Hit 3 shots, one high, one low with spin, and one low that runs out to the pin" and I chose 3 different clubs and hit all 3 shots within 10 feet and all looked different.  He replied, "I can't do that.  All I've got for that shot is a high L wedge."

 

I look forward to being at the level with my golf game that I can reliably do that.  I have only just recently started to try the low spinner shot sometimes from that distance instead of my stock high 3/4 60˚.  Generally I'm still just trying to keep my stock shots in the cone reliably enough to play closer to your index!

post #53 of 66

I always felt that I was a "feel" player because I give very little thought to mechanics. I actually do my best not to think about mechanics even though I know it's likely holding me back from improving from single digits to scratch. I never really considered "feel" vs. "mechanical" to be mutually exclusive terms, but do agree 100% that everyone has to be a feel. I guess I thought of it more as a "are you mechanical or not" question. I suppose you can make an argument that even in my feel, I must have had some mechanical thoughts somewhere along the way. Regardless, interesting topic.

post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na5carr3 View Post
 

When you ride a bicycle, is it "feel" or "mechanical"? A golf swing I think could be compared the same way.

Interesting question.  Basic bicycle riding becomes feel rather quickly. But if you race , as I did, and want to go as fast as possible, there is a lot of technique that is not intuitive.  To race at higher levels where technique becomes important, you must learn the skills from a mechanical standpoint first in a similar manner as Erik has pointed out in the 5 "S"s of Great Practice Thread.  Road racing can involve a lot of tight turning and riding in a bunched up pack at high speeds.  Mountain bike racing has a different set of skills to help you negotiate obstacles and terrain at top speeds.  My bike club actually had training sessions for new riders to help them learn the skills.  I learned first then later became a trainer.

 

It all becomes feel at some point.  In some respects, I think the golf swing is harder to get the feel down that in bike racing.  When I was in the groove racing, I never thought about the technique and only focused on one thing, "Where do I want to go".  You are attached to the bike at five points and literally become one with the bike (stupid monkey?).  I haven't got there yet with golf.  I have had success with the short game, but with the long game I have not reached that level yet where I only think of, "Where do I want the ball to go?"

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