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Everyone is a Feel Player - Page 4

post #55 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Interesting question.  Basic bicycle riding becomes feel rather quickly. But if you race , as I did, and want to go as fast as possible, there is a lot of technique that is not intuitive.  To race at higher levels where technique becomes important, you must learn the skills from a mechanical standpoint first in a similar manner as Erik has pointed out in the 5 "S"s of Great Practice Thread.  Road racing can involve a lot of tight turning and riding in a bunched up pack at high speeds.  Mountain bike racing has a different set of skills to help you negotiate obstacles and terrain at top speeds.  My bike club actually had training sessions for new riders to help them learn the skills.  I learned first then later became a trainer.

 

It all becomes feel at some point.  In some respects, I think the golf swing is harder to get the feel down that in bike racing.  When I was in the groove racing, I never thought about the technique and only focused on one thing, "Where do I want to go".  You are attached to the bike at five points and literally become one with the bike (stupid monkey?).  I haven't got there yet with golf.  I have had success with the short game, but with the long game I have not reached that level yet where I only think of, "Where do I want the ball to go?"

 

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

post #56 of 66

Connect the dots learners are seldom good at action tasks with their first attempts but they are more willing to keep practicing until the dots are smoothed out into action.

 

Holistic action learners are much better at action tasks with their first attempts but are more likely to be resistant to practicing connecting the dots needed for mechanical improvement.

 

For either group to reach their potential they have to adopt traits from the other group.

 

When I was young and coaching kids in baseball it drove me crazy before I understood the difference and learned to have patience with the dots learners on new tasks (no matter how simple I thought they were) and learned to push the holistic action learners to work on mechanical improvement (even though they hated it and were going to resist it every step of the way).

 

Separate topic: Just curious. Do any of you guys hit the ball just as well if you close your eyes as soon as your downswing starts?

 

Once my downswing starts the horse is pretty much out of the barn and seeing the ball doesn't make much difference at that point. I know where the ball is and it's not like I am going to re-route my club based on what I am seeing. I'm not sure that's typical though.

post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 
Separate topic: Just curious. Do any of you guys hit the ball just as well if you close your eyes as soon as your downswing starts?

 

It's a great drill.  I didn't at first, but mainly due to the discomfort, not the (mechanics/feel - pick one).  Once I accepted the eyes closed, it worked pretty nicely actually.

post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

I disagree discussion is pointless.  Purpose of this thread is to illustrate that even if you are "mechanical" you need employ some feel in order produce the mechanics.

 

my point was only this - the discussion isn't pointless, the way it's being discussed is - here's why:

  • I'll seen one poster seem to define feel one way, and another poster define mechanical with the same concept/terms.
  • Attempts to clarify have only resulted in pretty vague definitions of both.  anecdotal at best ("I think this guy is feel/mechanical and here's how he plays....") 
  • Mostly, I see someone arbitrarily consider themselves as one, and then just attach a complimentary definition to that term and a negative definition to the other.
  • Seems that people think the definitions are so obvious, that they don't need to put it right down

 

IMO - "mechanics" (not 'mechanical player'), and "feel" (not a 'feel player') are not contradictory terms whatsoever, you can't have one without the other.  mechanics are how you accomplish a performance objective, feel is how those mechanics get drilled into muscle memory.  I think this is what you mean.  there is no mechanical vs feel type 'players', there are just people that are at different points in achieving required muscle memory.  And the idea that someone with natural talent or ability to come up with creative shots isn't a mech or feel thing either - seems a lot of people want to tie that to the whole "feel player" thing too.  Maybe it's true or not, but it's a total divergence from the thread intent (IMO)

 

You and Erik are pretty good at laying the baseline definitions (right or wrong - you guys establish something for people to use as a common ground of discussion - example was the whole 'pressure' thing - you created a concept, tied a word to it and then discussed from that baseline and didn't let people redefine that word in such a way to derail the discussion - it works).

 

What do you 'want to' define as a 'mechanical' player and a 'feel' player?  (with that, at least we can then have apples to apples discussion)

 

without that, we are just arguing over our personal and varying definitions

post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

I'm not sure it's so much feel, as instinct..... especially in a group.  You just react......pot hole = bunny hop.....no time to think about it, it just happens.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

OK, so you guys are cyclists, eh?  What do you think of this? ...

 

Its not mine, its a co-workers.  I don't ride ... I own a $100 bike from Target that sits in the corner of the garage with flat tires.  He is really good and takes it pretty seriously.  I can do curls with this bike all day long.  It's about 10 pounds, and he tells me it is worth over $10,000!!!  (He doesn't have to pay for it though)

 

Anyways, :offtopic:  I know.  All done now.

post #61 of 66
Quote:
 ~~OK, so you guys are cyclists, eh? What do you think of this? ...

Er, It's a bike??:whistle:

post #62 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris3putt View Post
 

Er, It's a bike??:whistle:

Bingo!!  "Check out the big brain on Chris!" :-P  or I could go a couple of minutes later in the movie and find another apropos line:   "I don't remember asking you a G** damn thing!" :beer:

post #63 of 66
Quote:
 ~~ "I don't remember asking you a G** damn thing!" :beer:

Asking has never been a requirement for me to give my opinion, Drew!!:beer:

And, yeah, yeah :offtopic:, I know!

post #64 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 

Connect the dots learners are seldom good at action tasks with their first attempts but they are more willing to keep practicing until the dots are smoothed out into action.

 

Holistic action learners are much better at action tasks with their first attempts but are more likely to be resistant to practicing connecting the dots needed for mechanical improvement.

 

I'd never heard these terms as a way of splitting up types of learners.  I really like them!  Definitely one more good frames to keep in mind when teaching athletics!

post #65 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post

Instinct is anticipating trouble and being in the right position.  Feel and experience gets you out of trouble when it happens.  Riders without feel and experience take the whole pack down. The worst was when someone would drop a water bottle into the pack at 30 mph.

No, the worst thing is some idiot grabbing a brake at 30 mph!
post #66 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


No, the worst thing is some idiot grabbing a brake at 30 mph!

No, from what I know of cycling, the worst thing is when somebody from your favorite Italian team sticks his pump in your front spokes at 30mph around a bend when nobody else can see. :bugout:

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