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Aeration Plug partial underground- Loose Impediment?  

Poll Results: Is it too late to add a poll?

 
  • 87% (7)
    Yes
  • 12% (1)
    No
8 Total Votes  
post #1 of 42
Thread Starter 

Is an aeration plug that is partially above the surface of the grass and partially stuck in its original hole a loose impediment that you can remove?

 

This would seem to say yes-

 

23/8

Worm Partially Underground

Q.Is a worm, when half on top of the surface of the ground and half below, a loose impediment which may be removed? Or is it fixed or solidly embedded and therefore not a loose impediment?

A.A worm which is half underground is not "fixed or growing" or "solidly embedded" within the meaning of those terms in the Definition of "Loose Impediments." Accordingly, such a worm may be removed under Rule 16-1a(i) or Rule 23.

post #2 of 42

You answered your own question.  If it isn't still attached, then it's loose.

post #3 of 42

Once again, you've posed a rules question without giving your own opinion first. I've asked you to post your own answers in the past, and am asking again.

 

Please show off that great understanding of the Rules that you've claimed to have (though one could easily make the case that by having to ask such basic questions…).

post #4 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Is an aeration plug that is partially above the surface of the grass and partially stuck in its original hole a loose impediment that you can remove?

 

This would seem to say yes-

 

23/8

Worm Partially Underground

Q.Is a worm, when half on top of the surface of the ground and half below, a loose impediment which may be removed? Or is it fixed or solidly embedded and therefore not a loose impediment?

A.A worm which is half underground is not "fixed or growing" or "solidly embedded" within the meaning of those terms in the Definition of "Loose Impediments." Accordingly, such a worm may be removed under Rule 16-1a(i) or Rule 23.

 

Many, many Rules questions can be resolved by first consulting the Definitions. (It's often the first place an experienced rules official will go.)

 

Loose Impediments

 

Loose impediments’’ are natural objects, including:

  • stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
  • dung, and
  • worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,

provided they are not:

  • fixed or growing,
  • solidly embedded, or
  • adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.

Dew and frost are not loose impediments.

post #5 of 42

Seriously? Do any of you play a course that has been aerated with plugs and holes still out there, and the course does not then have a local rule for lift clean and place?

post #6 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

You answered your own question.  If it isn't still attached, then it's loose.

 

What, no popcorn this time?

;-)

post #7 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

Seriously? Do any of you play a course that has been aerated with plugs and holes still out there, and the course does not then have a local rule for lift clean and place?

 

Not for plugs, and only relief for holes.  This is not a preferred lies (or lift, clean, place if you like the non technical terms) situation.  You only get relief if the ball actually lies in an aeration hole, and then the local rule requires that the ball be dropped, not placed, unless the ball lies on the green.

 

Quote:
 

d. Aeration Holes

When a course has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief, without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following Local Rule is recommended:

“Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF LOCAL RULE:

Match play – Loss of hole; Stroke play – Two strokes.”

 
And plugs are only loose impediments.  You can move them, but you don't get to move your ball away from them.
post #8 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Is an aeration plug that is partially above the surface of the grass and partially stuck in its original hole a loose impediment that you can remove?

 

This would seem to say yes-

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

You answered your own question.  If it isn't still attached, then it's loose.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Once again, you've posed a rules question without giving your own opinion first. I've asked you to post your own answers in the past, and am asking again.

 

Please show off that great understanding of the Rules that you've claimed to have (though one could easily make the case that by having to ask such basic questions…).

 

I thought I was providing my interpretation when I said "This would seem to say yes"

 

For the record, I didn't realize that the plug was still partially embedded in the ground when I started to remove it, but the resistance that I got made me look more closely and realize that it was.  I went ahead and removed it anyway.  Based on the responses so far, it appears I was correct.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Many, many Rules questions can be resolved by first consulting the Definitions. (It's often the first place an experienced rules official will go.)

 

Loose Impediments

 

Loose impediments’’ are natural objects, including:

  • stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
  • dung, and
  • worms, insects and the like, and the casts and heaps made by them,

provided they are not:

  • fixed or growing,
  • solidly embedded, or
  • adhering to the ball.

Sand and loose soil are loose impediments on the putting green, but not elsewhere.

Snow and natural ice, other than frost, are either casual water or loose impediments, at the option of the player.

Dew and frost are not loose impediments.

I read the definition before posting.  The "solidly embedded" part was what I wasn't certain about.  Approximately half the plug was embedded.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

Seriously? Do any of you play a course that has been aerated with plugs and holes still out there, and the course does not then have a local rule for lift clean and place?

No lift, clean and place posted.  The maintenance crew was actually in the process of raking up after having punched this fairway.  There was a posting in the Men's room that said fairway aeration would take place from ~Sept 5-25 and most of the other holes have not been aerated yet.

 

On the same shot in question, there was a fully loose aeration plug behind my ball that my ball was resting on.  I did not try to remove that one.  Correct?

post #9 of 42

Worms are a specific case, hence the decision.  I've never seen an aeration plug, "stuck" in it's old hole.  Aeration plugs are loose impediments, like dirt clogs.  I wouldn't want to get into whether a plug in an aeration hole was solidly embedded.  When in doubt, leave it alone.

 

As far the plug resting on your ball, assuming the ball was not in a hazard, it may be removed.  If you ball moves, 1ps and replace your ball.  If the plug was adhering to your ball you can not remove it.  IF the ball was on the plug, you obviously can not remove the plug without moving the ball.

 

Honestly, if I was playing a course while it was being aerated, I wouldn't get too hung up on loose impediment rules.  It's not a tournament......I hope.  Move your ball/plug as necessary.

post #10 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I thought I was providing my interpretation when I said "This would seem to say yes"

 

You weren't. I asked four people, and given my own interpretation, we're 5 for 5 on how that's more of a question and/or saying that it is what the book says, it's not about your interpretation or understanding of what it says.

 

Fourputt was saying you answered your own question by citing the rule, not because you specifically shared your own answer.

 

And as seems typical with your threads, you're already into the "adding details not present in the first post" stage. Please learn to just get it all out in the first post.

post #11 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Worms are a specific case, hence the decision.  I've never seen an aeration plug, "stuck" in it's old hole.  Aeration plugs are loose impediments, like dirt clogs.  I wouldn't want to get into whether a plug in an aeration hole was solidly embedded.  When in doubt, leave it alone.

 

As far the plug resting on your ball, assuming the ball was not in a hazard, it may be removed.  If you ball moves, 1ps and replace your ball.  If the plug was adhering to your ball you can not remove it.  IF the ball was on the plug, you obviously can not remove the plug without moving the ball.

 

Honestly, if I was playing a course while it was being aerated, I wouldn't get too hung up on loose impediment rules.  It's not a tournament......I hope.  Move your ball/plug as necessary.

 

It was definitely "stuck" in its own hole...Not so stuck that it didn't come out when I pulled on it, but it did offer some resistance.  I understand that worms are a specific case, but was trying to use the same logic here.  So do you disagree with the majority here that it was clearly within the rules to remove the partially embedded plug?

 

It was not a tournament BUT I do have the semi-finals of the Passholder Match Play Tournament coming up on the same course, which is why I asked the question.  Keystone does not host many internal club tournaments and seems more in the habit of letting golfers decide for themselves whether they want to play lift, clean and place as opposed to posting it.

post #12 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

It was definitely "stuck" in its own hole...Not so stuck that it didn't come out when I pulled on it, but it did offer some resistance.  I understand that worms are a specific case, but was trying to use the same logic here.  So do you disagree with the majority here that it was clearly within the rules to remove the partially embedded plug?

 

I don't see a majority saying that.

post #13 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

Is an aeration plug that is partially above the surface of the grass and partially stuck in its original hole a loose impediment that you can remove?

This would seem to say yes-

23/8



Worm Partially Underground



Q.
Is a worm, when half on top of the surface of the ground and half below, a loose impediment which may be removed? Or is it fixed or solidly embedded and therefore not a loose impediment?



A.
A worm which is half underground is not "fixed or growing" or "solidly embedded" within the meaning of those terms in the Definition of "Loose Impediments." Accordingly, such a worm may be removed under Rule 16-1a(i)
 or Rule 23
.

a3_biggrin.gif
a3_biggrin.gif

I am fourth generation Cherokee. I would first consult with the worm before any talk of removal became serious. :)
post #14 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I don't see a majority saying that.

 

You might be right, looking back at the posts, it is a lot of rules quoting.

 

So, let's start over. 

 

Who thinks that the rules allow you to remove an aeration plug that is half above the surface and half in its original hole?  Who thinks you can't?  Who is unsure? (Is it too late to add a poll?)

 

I think that the logic behind the worm decision should apply the same to aeration holes.  Put another way, my opinion is that the rules allow you to remove a partially embedded aeration plug as a loose impediment.  Going a bit further with my thinking (beyond the worm decision), I think that the partially embedded plug has been cut away from the earth/grass that it was originally attached to and is more just "stuck" in its original hole as opposed to still being attached or "solidly" embedded.

post #15 of 42

23/2

Meaning of "Solidly Embedded" in Definition of "Loose Impediments"

Q.The Definition of "Loose Impediments" states that a stone is a loose impediment if it is not "solidly embedded." When is a stone solidly embedded?

A.If a stone is partially embedded and may be picked up with ease, it is a loose impediment. When there is doubt as to whether a stone is solidly embedded or not, it should not be removed.

 

 

And before you ask, it's a judgment call on what "with ease" means.

 

I would not remove it. I would penalize you if you did and I noticed that it was still "stuck."

post #16 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

Worms are a specific case, hence the decision.  I've never seen an aeration plug, "stuck" in it's old hole.  Aeration plugs are loose impediments, like dirt clogs.  I wouldn't want to get into whether a plug in an aeration hole was solidly embedded.  When in doubt, leave it alone.

 

As far the plug resting on your ball, assuming the ball was not in a hazard, it may be removed.  If you ball moves, 1ps and replace your ball.  If the plug was adhering to your ball you can not remove it.  IF the ball was on the plug, you obviously can not remove the plug without moving the ball.

 

Honestly, if I was playing a course while it was being aerated, I wouldn't get too hung up on loose impediment rules.  It's not a tournament......I hope.  Move your ball/plug as necessary.

 

It was definitely "stuck" in its own hole...Not so stuck that it didn't come out when I pulled on it, but it did offer some resistance.  I understand that worms are a specific case, but was trying to use the same logic here.  So do you disagree with the majority here that it was clearly within the rules to remove the partially embedded plug?

 

It was not a tournament BUT I do have the semi-finals of the Passholder Match Play Tournament coming up on the same course, which is why I asked the question.  Keystone does not host many internal club tournaments and seems more in the habit of letting golfers decide for themselves whether they want to play lift, clean and place as opposed to posting it.

 

Did you see my post of the correct local rule for this?  If the local rule had been invoked solely for the aeration conditions, they are not warranted in using the Preferred Lies local rule.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I don't see a majority saying that.

 

You might be right, looking back at the posts, it is a lot of rules quoting.

 

So, let's start over. 

 

Who thinks that the rules allow you to remove an aeration plug that is half above the surface and half in its original hole?  Who thinks you can't?  Who is unsure? (Is it too late to add a poll?)

 

I think that the logic behind the worm decision should apply the same to aeration holes.  Put another way, my opinion is that the rules allow you to remove a partially embedded aeration plug as a loose impediment.  Going a bit further with my thinking (beyond the worm decision), I think that the partially embedded plug has been cut away from the earth/grass that it was originally attached to and is more just "stuck" in its original hole as opposed to still being attached or "solidly" embedded.

 

The worm decision doesn't really apply because the worm is a living thing capable of putting up resistance to being removed.  The aeration plug is not.  If it offers any significant resistance to movement, then it is firmly embedded.  As Erik says, that's a judgement call.  It may be a bad break, just like if the ball comes to rest partially supported by a plug, but those are the breaks.  

 

You have the choice of hitting the ball as it lies, or declaring the ball unplayable and dropping clear.  However, a drop is a chancy thing too, as the ball could end up in a similar lie if you don't do a good job of cleaning  up the dropping area.  Sometimes it's actually not the worst thing to remove the loose impediment, and if it does cause the ball to move, replace the ball and take the one stroke penalty that way, with the loose impediment no longer a factor.

post #17 of 42
So if the dirt that comes out of the hole is called a plug, then why do we call those delectable little breakfast bites "donut holes?"

Sorry jamo or boogie, I'm not ever calling them "munchkins" so don't bother. ;)
post #18 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

 

It was not a tournament BUT I do have the semi-finals of the Passholder Match Play Tournament coming up on the same course, which is why I asked the question.  Keystone does not host many internal club tournaments and seems more in the habit of letting golfers decide for themselves whether they want to play lift, clean and place as opposed to posting it.

 

 

Having thought about this some more, I might be inclined to be a little more lenient on judging what is solidly embedded.  I don't think "play it as it lies" envisioned a Toro aerator.  Having said that, you still need to follow the definition of a Loose Impediment the best you can.

 

You said match play, which is a little different anyway.  If you and your opponent agree on a loose impediment, again believing you are applying the rule correctly, you don't need me or anyone else to rule on it for you.  If you and your opponent agree it's done.

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