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Aeration Plug partial underground- Loose Impediment? - Page 2  

Poll Results: Is it too late to add a poll?

 
  • 87% (7)
    Yes
  • 12% (1)
    No
8 Total Votes  
post #19 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 

 

 

Having thought about this some more, I might be inclined to be a little more lenient on judging what is solidly embedded.  I don't think "play it as it lies" envisioned a Toro aerator.  Having said that, you still need to follow the definition of a Loose Impediment the best you can.

 

You said match play, which is a little different anyway.  If you and your opponent agree on a loose impediment, again believing you are applying the rule correctly, you don't need me or anyone else to rule on it for you.  If you and your opponent agree it's done.

 

Thanks...my one potential opponent is a guy I have played with a good bit and doubt there would be any issues.  I don't know the other guy, but they are trying to pick up after the aeration, so I think the incident the other day was in part bad timing.

 
Aeration seems common enough that I am surprised the USGA doesn't have more specific decisions on it.  Of course, I haven't seen too many partially removed plugs (and didn't realize this one was still partially in the ground until I started moving it).
post #20 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Is an aeration plug that is partially above the surface of the grass and partially stuck in its original hole a loose impediment that you can remove?

 

This would seem to say yes-

 

23/8

Worm Partially Underground

Q.Is a worm, when half on top of the surface of the ground and half below, a loose impediment which may be removed? Or is it fixed or solidly embedded and therefore not a loose impediment?

A.A worm which is half underground is not "fixed or growing" or "solidly embedded" within the meaning of those terms in the Definition of "Loose Impediments." Accordingly, such a worm may be removed under Rule 16-1a(i) or Rule 23.

 

Try to pick it up. If you fail and it breaks in half ... 13-2 says two strokes or loss of hole. If it comes away intact ... R23 and the Definitions say loose impediment. ps It's not a worm. Whatever possessed you to look there?

post #21 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Try to pick it up. If you fail and it breaks in half ... 13-2 says two strokes or loss of hole. If it comes away intact ... R23 and the Definitions say loose impediment. ps It's not a worm. Whatever possessed you to look there?

 

I looked at Rule 23 because I thought of the aeration plug as a loose impediment.  I went through all the decisions and didn't see anything about partially underground aeration plugs and thought that a partially underground worm seemed most similar.  

 
Which decision in rule 13-2 do you think applies?  The only part of rule 13-2 that seems like it might be applicable is 
 
  • moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable Obstructions and objects defining Out Of Bounds),

The maintenance staff had already cut out the plug- even if it is still partially in the ground, the roots have been severed and it is their intention to remove the plug.  Debatable whether it is still growing and it definitely is not fixed in the location that it was growing in before they did the aeration. 

 

FWIW, It did not break when I tried to remove it, so by your thinking, I did not incur a penalty?

post #22 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Try to pick it up. If you fail and it breaks in half ... 13-2 says two strokes or loss of hole. If it comes away intact ... R23 and the Definitions say loose impediment. ps It's not a worm. Whatever possessed you to look there?

 

I looked at Rule 23 because I thought of the aeration plug as a loose impediment.  I went through all the decisions and didn't see anything about partially underground aeration plugs and thought that a partially underground worm seemed most similar.  

 
Which decision in rule 13-2 do you think applies?  The only part of rule 13-2 that seems like it might be applicable is 
 
  • moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable Obstructions and objects defining Out Of Bounds),

The maintenance staff had already cut out the plug- even if it is still partially in the ground, the roots have been severed and it is their intention to remove the plug.  Debatable whether it is still growing and it definitely is not fixed in the location that it was growing in before they did the aeration. 

 

FWIW, It did not break when I tried to remove it, so by your thinking, I did not incur a penalty?

 

R13-2 says that you may not improve your lie by, among other things, moving, bending or breaking anything fixed. So, if you break it by tugging on it, one could surmise that it's fixed. 

 

R23 says that, with some caveats, you may remove loose impediments. Loose impediments are "loose" so, if you pick it up, and it doesn't pull part due to one end being stuck firmly in the hole, it probably wouldn't be judged to be as fixed or solidly embedded, and therefor, might qualify as a loose impediment.

post #23 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

Aeration seems common enough that I am surprised the USGA doesn't have more specific decisions on it.  Of course, I haven't seen too many partially removed plugs (and didn't realize this one was still partially in the ground until I started moving it).

 

For someone who is in favor of simplifying all the time, now you want them to add something? They have all they need. If it's loose, it's loose. If it's not loose, it's not loose. The definition and 23/2 are all you need.

 

As I've said, I would have left it alone if there was any doubt as to how "not loose" it was.

post #24 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

For someone who is in favor of simplifying all the time, now you want them to add something? They have all they need. If it's loose, it's loose. If it's not loose, it's not loose. The definition and 23/2 are all you need.

 

As I've said, I would have left it alone if there was any doubt as to how "not loose" it was.

Yes, I would like to see rules as simple as possible, but you have correctly pointed out that one of the reasons the rules (& decisions) have grown over the years is because they have addressed specific instances that have come up.

 

To me, fewer judgement calls are simpler even if it means adding more words to the decisions.  Given that different people seem to have different opinions on this, it seems like a judgement call that is not specifically addressed by any of the decisions.

 

As I have said, I did not actually realize that part of the plug was still in the hole until I started pulling on the part that was sitting loose on the fairway.  AKA, if moving it was a penalty, I was already guilty before realizing that it was still partially in the hole.

 

So if a worm that is partially loose on the fairway and partially in the ground is considered a "loose" impediment, then why wouldn't a cut out aeration plug that is partially loose on the fairway and partially in the ground be considered the same?  Whenever rules have an inconsistency in logic, that makes them more complicated to me.

post #25 of 42

A few years ago, a local golf course had aerated the fairways earlier that day and left the castings to dissolve on the fairway. When I asked the front desk how to deal with the holes and castings they said they are doing "lift, clean and place" for the next week to 10 days until they fairways have healed.

 

This last week another course was aerating the fairways right then and there, but picking up all the castings. I asked if they had any rulings for balls coming to rest in an aeration hole, and I received the the instruction of, "lift, clean and place" if in an aeration hole.

 

Asking for the local ruling seemed to be the best idea. Everybody was on the same page at the first teebox.

 

Fairways and Greens . . .

post #26 of 42

This one doesn't need a specific rule. The definitions and the rule itself take care of it.

 

I don't see many different opinions. If it's attached, you're penalized. I'd have penalized you - you shouldn't have moved it.

 

As for why a worm and an aeration plug are different, gee, let me think… is a worm an aeration plug? I'm leaning towards no… :-P

post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Driver View Post
 

 

This last week another course was aerating the fairways right then and there, but picking up all the castings. I asked if they had any rulings for balls coming to rest in an aeration hole, and I received the the instruction of, "lift, clean and place" if in an aeration hole.

 

 

There is a specific local rule for aeration holes

 

“Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Driver View Post
 

 

This last week another course was aerating the fairways right then and there, but picking up all the castings. I asked if they had any rulings for balls coming to rest in an aeration hole, and I received the the instruction of, "lift, clean and place" if in an aeration hole.

 

 

There is a specific local rule for aeration holes

 

“Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

 

Yeah, I already posted it somewhere above, but nobody pays any attention to it.  Sometimes I wonder why I bother. 

post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yeah, I already posted it somewhere above, but nobody pays any attention to it.  Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

 

 

I think everyone, most anyway, understands that.  The OP did not have an local rule in place, hence the continued dissertations on the  definition of a LI.

post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yeah, I already posted it somewhere above, but nobody pays any attention to it.  Sometimes I wonder why I bother.

 

 

I think everyone, most anyway, understands that.  The OP did not have an local rule in place, hence the continued dissertations on the  definition of a LI.

 

My point is that this is about the 3rd or 4th post stating that preferred lies is the way to deal with aeration holes, when the rules say nothing of the sort, and in fact there is a specific local rule for taking relief from aeration holes.  It bugs me when people and courses think that they can institute whatever they like for local rules and ignore the book.  If that was my course, I'd head straight into the head pro with rule book in hand to show him the error of his ways.  If he chose to ignore me, then I'd find another place to play.  I've been fortunate in having a home course where the rules are taken as seriously as I feel that they should be by a facility which calls itself a "golf" course.

post #31 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

Seriously? Do any of you play a course that has been aerated with plugs and holes still out there, and the course does not then have a local rule for lift clean and place?

Based on what Fourputt and Rulesman are saying, all the course that allow you to place instead of drop the ball are doing it wrong.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

There is a specific local rule for aeration holes

 

“Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yeah, I already posted it somewhere above, but nobody pays any attention to it.  Sometimes I wonder why I bother. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that this is about the 3rd or 4th post stating that preferred lies is the way to deal with aeration holes, when the rules say nothing of the sort, and in fact there is a specific local rule for taking relief from aeration holes.  It bugs me when people and courses think that they can institute whatever they like for local rules and ignore the book.  If that was my course, I'd head straight into the head pro with rule book in hand to show him the error of his ways.  If he chose to ignore me, then I'd find another place to play.  I've been fortunate in having a home course where the rules are taken as seriously as I feel that they should be by a facility which calls itself a "golf" course.

 

Are you saying that the USGA strongly recommends that courses institute this as a local rule whenever aerating or just saying that IF courses want to institute a local rule after aerating, then it should read like you guys posted (and NOT simply lift, clean and place)?  

 
If the former, then why not just have the rule as part of the ROG?  I say this because I don't think I am the only one who has played a course where they don't know the ROG that well- at least if it is in the Rules Book, then players don't have to rely on the course to get it right.  I suppose the obvious answer is that only the course knows how long it makes sense to have the rule in place as different courses heal differently, but since it only applies when you are actually in an aeration hole (not my case) then it would be a judgement call sorta like whether an imperfection in the green is a old ball mark or not.
 
Given that the maintenance staff was in the process of removing the aeration plugs as we played the hole, are there any other possible rulings that could have come into play for me (like ground under repair)?
post #32 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustyredcab View Post
 

Seriously? Do any of you play a course that has been aerated with plugs and holes still out there, and the course does not then have a local rule for lift clean and place?

Based on what Fourputt and Rulesman are saying, all the course that allow you to place instead of drop the ball are doing it wrong.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

There is a specific local rule for aeration holes

 

“Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted, without penalty, cleaned and dropped, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Yeah, I already posted it somewhere above, but nobody pays any attention to it.  Sometimes I wonder why I bother. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that this is about the 3rd or 4th post stating that preferred lies is the way to deal with aeration holes, when the rules say nothing of the sort, and in fact there is a specific local rule for taking relief from aeration holes.  It bugs me when people and courses think that they can institute whatever they like for local rules and ignore the book.  If that was my course, I'd head straight into the head pro with rule book in hand to show him the error of his ways.  If he chose to ignore me, then I'd find another place to play.  I've been fortunate in having a home course where the rules are taken as seriously as I feel that they should be by a facility which calls itself a "golf" course.

 

Are you saying that the USGA strongly recommends that courses institute this as a local rule whenever aerating or just saying that IF courses want to institute a local rule after aerating, then it should read like you guys posted (and NOT simply lift, clean and place)?  

 
If the former, then why not just have the rule as part of the ROG?  I say this because I don't think I am the only one who has played a course where they don't know the ROG that well- at least if it is in the Rules Book, then players don't have to rely on the course to get it right.  I suppose the obvious answer is that only the course knows how long it makes sense to have the rule in place as different courses heal differently, but since it only applies when you are actually in an aeration hole (not my case) then it would be a judgement call sorta like whether an imperfection in the green is a old ball mark or not.
 
 

 

Look at post #7 in this thread.  That is quite specific as to how a course or competition committee is supposed to deal with aeration holes.  I realize that you would dispute it since it requires dropping rather than placing, and you think that players should never get anything but a perfect lie.  A few perforations in the fairway and rough do not justify fluffing lies.  The authorized local rule requires that the drop be "as near as possible" to where the ball lies in the aeration hole, not placed a clublength away so that the player can take any problems out play.

 

Quote:
 Given that the maintenance staff was in the process of removing the aeration plugs as we played the hole, are there any other possible rulings that could have come into play for me (like ground under repair)?

 

Only if the plugs have been piled for removal.  Otherwise they are loose impediments, and the holes are addressed by the proper local rule.  What would you do, declare the entire fairway as GUR?

post #33 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that this is about the 3rd or 4th post stating that preferred lies is the way to deal with aeration holes, when the rules say nothing of the sort, and in fact there is a specific local rule for taking relief from aeration holes.  It bugs me when people and courses think that they can institute whatever they like for local rules and ignore the book.  If that was my course, I'd head straight into the head pro with rule book in hand to show him the error of his ways.  If he chose to ignore me, then I'd find another place to play.  I've been fortunate in having a home course where the rules are taken as seriously as I feel that they should be by a facility which calls itself a "golf" course.

 

 

Understood.  Can't say I'm quite as worked up over this as you are.....but I am not disagreeing with your points as to what the rules say.  As far as an aerated fairway if the plugs are still laying out there, which is what I thought we were talking about, I wouldn't care.  Maybe we are not talking about the same thing, but at my course when we aerate a fairway with the plugs still there, I would call the whole fairway as GUR.  It's a mess, certainly not acceptable  for a competition.  As far as casual play, if the plugs hadn't been picked up yet, I'd probably skip the hole.  If the club said you can play it and place your ball........whatever.  I wouldn't quit the club over it.;-)

 

I'm not trying to supplant the Rules of Golf, and no, clubs should not make up their own rules.  As long as everyone understands the definition of a loose impediment, and the local rule for aeration holes, I think we'd be good.

post #34 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dormie1360 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that this is about the 3rd or 4th post stating that preferred lies is the way to deal with aeration holes, when the rules say nothing of the sort, and in fact there is a specific local rule for taking relief from aeration holes.  It bugs me when people and courses think that they can institute whatever they like for local rules and ignore the book.  If that was my course, I'd head straight into the head pro with rule book in hand to show him the error of his ways.  If he chose to ignore me, then I'd find another place to play.  I've been fortunate in having a home course where the rules are taken as seriously as I feel that they should be by a facility which calls itself a "golf" course.

 

 

Understood.  Can't say I'm quite as worked up over this as you are.....but I am not disagreeing with your points as to what the rules say.  As far as an aerated fairway if the plugs are still laying out there, which is what I thought we were talking about, I wouldn't care.  Maybe we are not talking about the same thing, but at my course when we aerate a fairway with the plugs still there, I would call the whole fairway as GUR.  It's a mess, certainly not acceptable  for a competition.  As far as casual play, if the plugs hadn't been picked up yet, I'd probably skip the hole.  If the club said you can play it and place your ball........whatever.  I wouldn't quit the club over it.;-)

 

I'm not trying to supplant the Rules of Golf, and no, clubs should not make up their own rules.  As long as everyone understands the definition of a loose impediment, and the local rule for aeration holes, I think we'd be good.

 

If the whole fairway is GUR, then where do you plan to take the mandatory complete relief under Rule 25?  Do you plan to drop in the rough on every hole? 

 
This is why using the proper local rule makes the most sense.  It treats the course conditions in an appropriate manner, allowing relief when your ball actually lies in a hole, and allowing the normal implementation of Rule 23 to take care of the plugs.  It allows relief in the same manner as an embedded ball, since that condition is most like the lie in an aeration hole.
post #35 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

If the whole fairway is GUR, then where do you plan to take the mandatory complete relief under Rule 25?

 

That's my point, it would be a silly exercise in trying to apply the rules.  I'm starting to think we are just talking past each other at this point.  :surrender:

post #36 of 42
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Look at post #7 in this thread.  That is quite specific as to how a course or competition committee is supposed to deal with aeration holes.  I realize that you would dispute it since it requires dropping rather than placing, and you think that players should never get anything but a perfect lie.  A few perforations in the fairway and rough do not justify fluffing lies.  The authorized local rule requires that the drop be "as near as possible" to where the ball lies in the aeration hole, not placed a clublength away so that the player can take any problems out play.

 

 

Only if the plugs have been piled for removal.  Otherwise they are loose impediments, and the holes are addressed by the proper local rule.  What would you do, declare the entire fairway as GUR?

I may not agree with all the rules, but I do want to understand all the current rules as that is what I try to play by.

 

As far as dropping vs placing when you are in an aeration hole, there is a logical argument that it is similar to an embedded ball, so the relief should be similar.  One issue I see where the plugs are still present on the fairway is speed of play.  As you are allowed to remove loose impediments prior to dropping, a player might want to clear a 2 club radius area before dropping to avoid having his ball roll onto a plug.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

If the whole fairway is GUR, then where do you plan to take the mandatory complete relief under Rule 25?  Do you plan to drop in the rough on every hole? 

 
This is why using the proper local rule makes the most sense.  It treats the course conditions in an appropriate manner, allowing relief when your ball actually lies in a hole, and allowing the normal implementation of Rule 23 to take care of the plugs.  It allows relief in the same manner as an embedded ball, since that condition is most like the lie in an aeration hole.

 

In my case, when I looked back at the fairway from the green, it appeared that only the left side of the fairway had been aerated and 3 or 4 maintenance guys were out picking up the plugs as we played the hole.  This was #13 and I did not notice any other holes being affected.  I can only assume, but maybe their strategy was to aerate half the fairway, then pick up the plugs before aerating the other half.  As I think I mentioned before, there was a notice in the Men's room giving about a 3 week time frame for fairway aeration.

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