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Scrambles- Do you assume winners cheat? - Page 4

post #55 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Sorry, Rick, but I agree with @Golfingdad.

 

This is a scramble. If you enter it for anything more than goofing around and possibly having some beers on the course with your friends… you've entered the wrong tournament. No scramble is ever a serious competition, and thus, no scramble is ever a legitimate competition.

 

Just like that Rolex you bought in NYC for $20 is not a real Rolex. You want a real Rolex, you go to a reputable jeweler or something, not a street vendor.

 

What's a "serious competition?"  I mean, you're a pro in Erie.  You think that tournament amongst northwestern PA pros at some country club is a serious competition?  Because nobody except your members gives half a shit who wins.

post #56 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

 

What's a "serious competition?"  I mean, you're a pro in Erie.  You think that tournament amongst northwestern PA pros at some country club is a serious competition?  Because nobody except your members gives half a shit who wins.

How is the comment anything more than being a jerk? C'mon now @Aguirre, there's really no need to take that tone over this. 

post #57 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

Horsehockey!  If you are competing with other players in a tournament format for prizes, whether monetary or merchandise, then it's a real competition.  It's attitudes like yours that propagate the myth and help those players to justify their actions, no matter how wrong that mindset is.  Someone reads your comment and figures it's okay since "everybody else" does it.   The trouble is, everybody else doesn't do it. 

 

Sorry, Rick, but I agree with @Golfingdad.

 

This is a scramble. If you enter it for anything more than goofing around and possibly having some beers on the course with your friends… you've entered the wrong tournament. No scramble is ever a serious competition, and thus, no scramble is ever a legitimate competition.

 

Just like that Rolex you bought in NYC for $20 is not a real Rolex. You want a real Rolex, you go to a reputable jeweler or something, not a street vendor.

 

It may not be played under the rules of golf, but it's still a competition.  When players play against each other for a prize, it's a competition.  A three-legged race is a competition.  There are still rules, even if those rules are modified beyond the recognition of the USGA.  Whatever committee organizes the event makes the rules, and teams are expected to follow those rules while competing against each other.   If that isn't the very definition of a competition, then someone needs to contact Merriam-Webster and tell them that they got it wrong.

post #58 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

How is the comment anything more than being a jerk? C'mon now @Aguirre, there's really no need to take that tone over this. 

 

This is the internet.  Any forum worth posting on has both members and moderators who can take criticism.  And he deserved criticism for such a ridiculous position.  A competition is as serious as it's participants want it to be.  It's importance in it's individual sport/game is a completely different discussion.

 

Fourputt just outlined the definition of competition, which is quite simple.  How serious the competition is entirely up to the participants, and nobody else.  And Fourputt is also correct by saying that treating it as a second class nothing, pros encourage cheating.  The pro at my outing yesterday made a joke about how the GPS scoring system allows you to "see how your buddies are doing and cheat appropriately" at the announcement before we left the clubhouse area.  I wasn't happy about that.  

 

How is a scramble any less "serious" than a member-guest, or club championship?  I'll tell you--it isn't.  None affect the golf world anymore than regional PGA club pro tournaments, with their galleries of zero.

post #59 of 83
Rick, i'm taking the connotative definition of competition which adds in a subjective layer of "seriousness." Obviously any time people are engaging in a game they are competing by the strict definition.

Aguirre, a section event with $5000 going to the winner is far more serious than a charity scramble, and far less serious and the PGA championship. The fact that a scramble is not even contested under the rules of golf virtually guarantee it's lack of seriousness as a "golf competition." I agree that any competition is as serious as its competitors want it to be, but virtually no scramble participants take it that seriously.

I am playing golf later today with three guys. The level of seriousness will fall somewhere between that of a scramble and that of a section event.
post #60 of 83
Somebody should start a poll!

My two cents. A scramble is definitely a competition. Now I don't take scrambles too seriously, but much like the beer pong tournaments back in college, there are still winners, losers, and tons of drunk guys trying to do their best in spite of a growing B.A.C.
post #61 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 I agree that any competition is as serious as its competitors want it to be, but virtually no scramble participants take it that seriously.

 

Okay, a PGA Sectional.  I also have about $900 on my sofa table right now, which would rank 59th on the 2014 Tri-State PGA tours official money list.  Not to mention the skins money we paid out yesterday was solidly more than the average Top 5 finish on that tour.

 

Obviously you take those competitions more seriously than the average scramble participant.  But I assure you, all four members of my group yesterday took every shot and every putt seriously trying to win what is a competition by definition.

 

The fact that the USGA and R&A doesn't have scramble specific rules or what have you is totally irrelevant.  The absurd stuffed-shirt nature of both those organizations who cater to the country club crowd and who are completely out-of-touch with the recreational golfer can shut the hell up.  Davis and O'Toole can govern the official rules and run their competitions but the game isn't theirs or the USGAs.  It's the players.

post #62 of 83
@Aguirre, nobody is debating whether or not it is a competition. The question is related to the seriousness of it.

People cheat in bar room pool all the time, but do not cheat at world championship pool competitions or whatever.

People commit foul line violations all the time in league bowling matches that go uncalled (unless you're playing against John Goodman), but lane violations do not go unpunished on the professional bowling tour.

I also don't know what tour you're talking about.

As for your other issues with the USGA or whatever, I suppose those are best saved for another thread.

BTW, what is the penalty if you move your ball more than one club length or whatever is allowed in a scramble to play your next shot? What is the penalty if a player hits a second ball because they were distracted by someone on another hole? What is the penalty when someone taps in for par before everyone else has finished attempting the birdie putt?

I would venture to say that nearly 100% of the time these types of things are not penalized at all.

@Aguirre, you seem to be having a very angry day. Look outside. It's probably nice out. Smile. It's just golf. a1_smile.gif

I will summarize my position. Do I assume the winners "cheated?" Yes. Do I care? No, because I along with the vast majority of everyone else do not regard scrambles as very serious.
post #63 of 83

I guess the difference is that you are assuming that all scrambles are equal.  I come from a different point of view.  My men's club holds a 5 man scramble to start every season.  It's an official club tournament, played in part as an introduction for new members.  The rules of golf apply aside from the obvious change of playing from the location of the chosen ball.  If a player incurs a penalty when playing his stroke, it's unlikely that his ball will be the chosen ball for the next shot, but if it is, then the penalty is counted.  Water hazards, bunkers, OB, lost balls, and the rules governing them are all recognized just as in a normal stroke competition.  Teams are generated randomly by handicap using the pairing software that we use for all tournaments.  Teams are made up of A, B, C, etc. players, but because of the random selection, there is no "stacking" or likelihood of collusion.  No cheating.  Just isn't going to happen.  The probability is strong that each team will have at least a couple of long time members who know and play by the rules.

 

I played in this tournament for 22 straight years.  The lowest winning score I ever saw was 15 under par.  Usually the winning team was 12 or 13 under.  This is why I argue a different viewpoint about scrambles.  There are scrambles which are legitimate competitions and do not promote cheating.  One company I worked for held a scramble outing every year, but the organizers did not allow players to set up their own teams.  Once again, when teams are randomly matched by an outside agency, it virtually eliminates any threat of cheaters having their way.  

 

That makes such tournaments a legitimate competition, even if it is necessary that the Rules of Golf are not rigidly adhered to.

post #64 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

 

Okay, a PGA Sectional.  I also have about $900 on my sofa table right now, which would rank 59th on the 2014 Tri-State PGA tours official money list.  Not to mention the skins money we paid out yesterday was solidly more than the average Top 5 finish on that tour.

 

Obviously you take those competitions more seriously than the average scramble participant.  But I assure you, all four members of my group yesterday took every shot and every putt seriously trying to win what is a competition by definition.

 

The fact that the USGA and R&A doesn't have scramble specific rules or what have you is totally irrelevant.  The absurd stuffed-shirt nature of both those organizations who cater to the country club crowd and who are completely out-of-touch with the recreational golfer can shut the hell up.  Davis and O'Toole can govern the official rules and run their competitions but the game isn't theirs or the USGAs.  It's the players.

Scrambles are like All-Star games, there's some pride on both sides to win, but no one approaches the game like they would a game with real significance played during the playoffs or even regular season.  You and your friends took it serious, but that doesn't mean the 4 guys drinking a beer every hole did, or the guy that brought along 3 of his customers as a perk took it serious.

 

A scramble is a competition by definition because there is a winner, but the motivation for being there for most of the participants isn't likely on winning. 

post #65 of 83
Last week I played in a Senior Mens Championship Tournament in Ann Arbor. I could have played far better if I was allowed to play "winter rules", purchase mulligans, etc. There are competitions and then there is tournament golf, the two are at different ends of the spectrum.
post #66 of 83

I don't see the problem so much as cheating. In non-HDCP scrambles, what I object to is the semi-pro scramble teams.

 

I played in a spring benefit scramble.  We had an A player who bombed drives, his  mid-HDCP who hit some beautiful irons shots, and myself and another older guy who hit good FWs and wedges on the day - the tournament organizers just grouped up together. I had played with the A player two years before.

 

Our group ended up tied with six other groups in First Flight at 8 under - a logjam at third place. The winning team shot 15 under, and second place shot 13 under. A member of the second-place team remarked that his foursome had finished in the top three of the last four scrambles they had played in.

 

So, it's not cheating, but the semi-pro teams do get an advantage. Maybe I should quit complaining and work on my game more so that one of the s-p groups picks me. 

 

Down in Southwest Oklahoma, this was an art form. Military and state government retirees would have a pool of five or six players, and assemble scramble foursomes for several events a month.

post #67 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

How can you say "not at all"?  If you are bending the rules in a competition, then you are cheating.  

 

The post read not ALL and not 'not at all' as you read it.

 

dave

post #68 of 83

I like playing in scrambles. I try hard as hell to win every one I play in. When I play in a charity scramble, I look at it as I am making a donation and getting to play golf. The object is for the charity to make as much money as possible, selling mulligans, string etc. I have never won one of these. I have won closest to the pin and longest drive. When my golfing group chooses up teams and plays a scramble you better believe it's a competition, We play for money and are trying hard to beat one another, and we have as much fun as playing by the "rules"

Any purest that doesn't like scrambles I can understand. But to say it's not a competition ? You have never played with a group like mine.

post #69 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Horsehockey!  If you are competing with other players in a tournament format for prizes, whether monetary or merchandise, then it's a real competition.  It's attitudes like yours that propagate the myth and help those players to justify their actions, no matter how wrong that mindset is.  Someone reads your comment and figures it's okay since "everybody else" does it.   The trouble is, everybody else doesn't do it. 
But were not really talking about cheating, we're talking about the bending of rules. In a 'competition' with no oversight and several groups who aren't regular golfers I'm completely ok with exactly the things Erik mentioned. Tapping in par putts before all birdies are attempted, Throwing your ball down 2 club lengths away in the fairway, stuff like that. That's being liberal, but not cheating. Cheating is writing down a 3 when you hit it 5 times. That's never ok.

Also I stipulate that I'm generally referring to fundraiser type events. I would have a bit different view in a club sanctioned event like you're referring to. :)
post #70 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post


But were not really talking about cheating, we're talking about the bending of rules. In a 'competition' with no oversight and several groups who aren't regular golfers I'm completely ok with exactly the things Erik mentioned. Tapping in par putts before all birdies are attempted, Throwing your ball down 2 club lengths away in the fairway, stuff like that. That's being liberal, but not cheating. Cheating is writing down a 3 when you hit it 5 times. That's never ok.

Also I stipulate that I'm generally referring to fundraiser type events. I would have a bit different view in a club sanctioned event like you're referring to. :)


I know quite a few people that play in as many charity scrambles as they can, and most of them are playing mostly for the prize money. They complain about groups they suspect of cheating but play anyway in hopes of shooting a lower score than the cheaters are willing to cheat (and sometimes it works).

 

I'm quite sure that if the people entering the scramble were polled before the round the overwhelming majority would prefer that no cheating goes on.

 

When people complain about cheating in a scramble they are not talking about "throwing your ball down 2 club lengths away in the fairway" or "tapping in par putts before all birdie putts are attempted". They don't care much about those sort of things and wouldn't even mention it afterward if they saw it happen.

 

What they do complain about is certain groups writing down scores that everybody knows are incapable of shooting.

post #71 of 83
Played in a charity event a few months ago. 4 man teams and one mulligan each player. I am a 13, two were scratch, and the other around 16. We shot a 58 straight up and thought we had won it. These guys hit it long and we Eagled all the Par 5's. I had a great putting day and sank several birdie putts.

Another group of all mid handicappers come in and turn in a card with a 55. I was surprised but didn't care since it was just a scramble but one of the guys in my group let someone in the other group have it. He knew all of them and was not afraid to let them know they were full of it. He is highly competitive and knew they were the types who would go around saying they won this event and beat him which did not sit well with him. Was pretty funny seeing them trying to defend themselves and you could just tell they knew they were guilty.
post #72 of 83

I assume that my team will not win unless we shoot a 54 with maxed out mulligans ... because that's about what it takes.

 

I can't worry about what other guys do or don't do.

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