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The (un)Affordable Health Care Act & Debt Ceiling Controversies

post #1 of 298
Thread Starter 

Anybody else think that we should vote all of the politicians in D.C. out of office?

 

At the very least we need two amendments to the Constitution:

  1) Term limits - 12 years max for Senators (2 terms) or members of the House (6 terms)

  2) Balanced budget amendment

post #2 of 298
I would have single term limits, and only retirement benefits commensurate to length of duty.

A balanced budget needs a smaller government and a larger private sector.

No politician will vote for this. Republican, Democrat or otherwise...

They run for office to make money.
post #3 of 298

I used to think term limits were silly and unnecessary with the idea that "Hey, if the people they represent like them so much, then why not allow them to keep voting for them."

 

What a stupid I was.

 

Seeing as how it seems like most everything they do is just campaigning for the next election disguised as "governing," then, yeah, I would definitely be for term limits.

 

I'd also vote for allowing people to pay a few bucks to kick tea-partiers in the balls (including Michelle Bachman) ;)  Maybe that money could go towards keeping the National Parks open?

post #4 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I would have single term limits, and only retirement benefits commensurate to length of duty.

A balanced budget needs a smaller government and a larger private sector.

No politician will vote for this. Republican, Democrat or otherwise...

They run for office to make money.

Well stated. That about sums it up in simple terms.

post #5 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I used to think term limits were silly and unnecessary with the idea that "Hey, if the people they represent like them so much, then why not allow them to keep voting for them."

 

What a stupid I was.

 

Seeing as how it seems like most everything they do is just campaigning for the next election disguised as "governing," then, yeah, I would definitely be for term limits.

 

I'd also vote for allowing people to pay a few bucks to kick tea-partiers in the balls (including Michelle Bachman) ;)  Maybe that money could go towards keeping the National Parks open?

Not going to get too political here but if you think this the shutdown is due to tea-partiers alone then you're mis-informed.  This is a game of chicken between the democrats and republicans, only they aren't in the cars, we are, and neither side cares who gets hurt as long as their side wins. 

post #6 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Not going to get too political here but if you think this the shutdown is due to tea-partiers alone then you're mis-informed.  This is a game of chicken between the democrats and republicans, only they aren't in the cars, we are, and neither side cares who gets hurt as long as their side wins.

Then inform me, because as I understand it, the tea-partiers are whiny little babies who don't like Obamacare.  A law, which was passed (legally), was upheld by the Supreme Court as constitutional, and should now be in effect but since they (wahhh, wahhh) don't like it, they refuse to fund it.  So, instead, they are playing terrorists and holding the government and the country hostage.  And on top of that, there is apparently more than enough votes to pass the bill to raise the debt ceiling and move on, but simply because of the tea-partiers, Boehner won't let it come to a vote.

 

They keep saying that the democrats won't negotiate with them, and that is a bunch of crap.  There is nothing to negotiate.  You lost.  Shut up and move on.  (I'm talking to republican congressmen there, not you @newtogolf just fyi. ;))

 

Anyways, that is how I understand it.  If I'm misinformed, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. :)

post #7 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Then inform me, because as I understand it, the tea-partiers are whiny little babies who don't like Obamacare.  A law, which was passed (legally), was upheld by the Supreme Court as constitutional, and should now be in effect but since they (wahhh, wahhh) don't like it, they refuse to fund it.  So, instead, they are playing terrorists and holding the government and the country hostage.  And on top of that, there is apparently more than enough votes to pass the bill to raise the debt ceiling and move on, but simply because of the tea-partiers, Boehner won't let it come to a vote.

 

They keep saying that the democrats won't negotiate with them, and that is a bunch of crap.  There is nothing to negotiate.  You lost.  Shut up and move on.  (I'm talking to republican congressmen there, not you @newtogolf just fyi. ;))

 

Anyways, that is how I understand it.  If I'm misinformed, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. :)

The Baltimore Sun had a good explanation of why the government is shut down and how both sides are playing chicken with the people of this country.

 

The Republican-controlled House of Representatives voted the money required to keep all government activities going with the exception of Obamacare.  This is not a matter of opinion, it is in the Congressional Record. As for the House's right to grant or withhold money, that is not a matter of opinion either. Just check the Constitution: All spending bills must originate in the House, which means that lawmakers there have the right to decide whether or not they want to fund a particular government activity

 

Whatever one's opinion of Obamacare, it is a fact that House members have the right to make such spending decisions.  The government workers who have been furloughed are not idle because the House did not vote enough money to pay their salaries or the other expenses of their agencies unless they were in an agency that would administer Obamacare.  We do know who had the option to keep the government running but chose not to. The money voted by the House covered everything that the government does except for Obamacare. The Senate chose not to vote to authorize that money to be spent, because it did not include money for Obamacare.

 

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and President Barack Obama refused to accept the money required to run the government because it left out the money they wanted to run Obamacare. That is their right. But that is also their responsibility. One cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want, so it is a fraud to blame them when there is a refusal to use the money that was offered, even when it is ample to pay for everything else in the government.

 

Withholding of money is legal (and not unprecedented) and is also a matter of fact.  Another bit of misinformation from the president and the Democrats is that the government will not be able to pay what it owes on the national debt, creating a danger of default.  Tax money keeps coming into the Treasury Department during the shutdown, and it exceeds the interest that has to be paid on the national debt. Even if the debt ceiling is not lifted, that means that government is just not allowed to run up new debt. It doesn't mean that it is unable to pay the interest on existing debt.  It's become painfully obvious that the government shutdown's sole purpose was to protect a sacred cow via the subrogation of government workers, the military, veterans, national security and the all important economy, to name just a few hurt by the shutdown.

post #8 of 298
Ummm, the House will do anything to pretend Obama never existed; the solution is to generate ideas to solve problems and work for the people;

Power is the greatest drug; and

Term limits are good
post #9 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond View Post

Power is the greatest drug; and

Term limits are good

Agree 100%

post #10 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

... One cannot blame other people for not giving you everything you want, so it is a fraud to blame them ...

Oh the irony. :)

 

Still, the story you posted seems to jive pretty well with what I already believed, albeit with a little more detail.

 

In general, it seems I am accurate in my assessment that republicans/tea partiers are refusing to fund obamacare because, well, ***k you, that's our right.  To "blame" the democrats for saying "wait a gosh darn minute here, this is unacceptable" is a little disingenuous, even if it isn't unprecedented.

 

I feel like a good analogy would be if we had a match for $10 per hole and you won $100 from me.  However, there was a little "controversy" on the 8th hole where I felt that you incurred a penalty and we both agreed that we would let the other two players in our foursome rule on it.  They ruled it wasn't an infraction and you won the hole.

 

After the match, I decide that I still think that I am right, even though it was agreed that I wasn't, so therefore I will pay you only the other $90.  You say, "forget that, you owe me $100.  Do not write me a check for $90, write me a check for $100 because that is what you owe."

 

And now I get to throw my hands up and say, "hey, it's not my fault he doesn't have 90% of what he earned, its his fault because he is not willing to negotiate with me."

post #11 of 298

I hope you guys figure it out, everyone deserves health care.

 

I remember reading somewhere that something like +90%* of US bankruptcies are health related. That is sad, you've done nothing wrong, you've worked hard and have been financially responsible and POW, you get sick/injured and you lose you house and cannot provide for your family. Crazy stuff.

 

 

totally made up number, don't remember the actual number but whatever it was, it was too high...:no:

 

 

I remember 30 years ago my father was on vacation in Cuba, he fell off a horse and busted up his knee really bad. They went to the hospital and got all fixed up and they all just called him Brian. NO ONE EVER ASKED WHAT HIS LAST NAME WAS LET ALONE WHO HIS INSURANCE PROVIDER WAS!!! Now I'm no communist, but they sure got that part right!

post #12 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Oh the irony. :)

 

Still, the story you posted seems to jive pretty well with what I already believed, albeit with a little more detail.

 

In general, it seems I am accurate in my assessment that republicans/tea partiers are refusing to fund obamacare because, well, ***k you, that's our right.  To "blame" the democrats for saying "wait a gosh darn minute here, this is unacceptable" is a little disingenuous, even if it isn't unprecedented.

 

I feel like a good analogy would be if we had a match for $10 per hole and you won $100 from me.  However, there was a little "controversy" on the 8th hole where I felt that you incurred a penalty and we both agreed that we would let the other two players in our foursome rule on it.  They ruled it wasn't an infraction and you won the hole.

 

After the match, I decide that I still think that I am right, even though it was agreed that I wasn't, so therefore I will pay you only the other $90.  You say, "forget that, you owe me $100.  Do not write me a check for $90, write me a check for $100 because that is what you owe."

 

And now I get to throw my hands up and say, "hey, it's not my fault he doesn't have 90% of what he earned, its his fault because he is not willing to negotiate with me."

I don't disagree, but you're forgetting that ObamaCare isn't exactly what it was portrayed to be in terms of actual execution or cost.  The analogy there is after I beat you, I decide you owe me $200 not the $100 we agreed to.

 

Obama and the GOP set the stage for government shutdown when they set these dates to come up with a balanced budget and reduce the debt.  Why is it that Obama was so concerned about the deficit when Bush was in office but now seems content to run up the bill a few more trillion dollars to ensure his legacy remains intact?

 

Both sides knew the public was going to suffer when they set these dates for government shutdown and they didn't care.

post #13 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

I hope you guys figure it out, everyone deserves health care.

 

I remember reading somewhere that something like +90%* of US bankruptcies are health related. That is sad, you've done nothing wrong, you've worked hard and have been financially responsible and POW, you get sick/injured and you lose you house and cannot provide for your family. Crazy stuff.

 

 

totally made up number, don't remember the actual number but whatever it was, it was too high...:no:

 

 

I remember 30 years ago my father was on vacation in Cuba, he fell off a horse and busted up his knee really bad. They went to the hospital and got all fixed up and they all just called him Brian. NO ONE EVER ASKED WHAT HIS LAST NAME WAS LET ALONE WHO HIS INSURANCE PROVIDER WAS!!! Now I'm no communist, but they sure got that part right!

Amen to that.  I don't remember specifics, but when we were in Italy on our honeymoon, my wife got sick (too much time alone with me???) and we went to a hospital and had a similar experience.  Just wait your turn, get diagnosed, get your prescription, get out of there.  It really wasn't that complicated.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Obama and the GOP set the stage for government shutdown when they set these dates to come up with a balanced budget and reduce the debt.  Why is it that Obama was so concerned about the deficit when Bush was in office but now seems content to run up the bill a few more trillion dollars to ensure his legacy remains intact?

 

Both sides knew the public was going to suffer when they set these dates for government shutdown and they didn't care.

I don't have a counter to that, and I don't really have an answer to that question.  But that's OK, cuz it was rhetorical anyways, right? ;)

 

---------------------------

 

I just don't understand why so many people have so much issue with us making an attempt to make this country a better place to live, and live healthy.  Is obamacare perfect?  Of course not!  Is it ever going to be?  Almost certainly not.  But is there a chance that it is going to be 1000% better than what we have in place now?  Maybe. maybe not.  But there is no way to know unless we try.

 

Get it moving, and work out the kinks as you go.  I imagine that is how a lot of big programs have worked in the past.  Why can't that be the way to continue into the future?

post #14 of 298
Thread Starter 

Most of this political rhetoric is pure BS. I hate when the "leader" of our country continually demonizes the other party. I hate when Republicans put forth a strategy that has 0% chance to get past the Senate or presidential veto.  I hate when leaders in both parties would rather listen to themselves bloviate than sit down and have meaningful discussions.  I just wish that Washington would get their act together.

post #15 of 298

The entire concept of healthcare in this country is backwards.  Doctors and health care companies should be paid when we're healthy, not when we're sick.  Today, doctors and hospitals are predominantly paid when we're sick (excluding pre-natal care, accidents, etc) what's their incentive to keep us healthy?

post #16 of 298
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Get it moving, and work out the kinks as you go.  I imagine that is how a lot of big programs have worked in the past.  Why can't that be the way to continue into the future?

 

I agree.  Only the future will decide if the Affordable Care Act will become entrenched into the American economy like Social Security, or will be so intrusive on American lives that it will go the way of prohibition.

post #17 of 298
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfreuter415 View Post
 

 

I agree.  Only the future will decide if the Affordable Care Act will become entrenched into the American economy like Social Security, or will be so intrusive on American lives that it will go the way of prohibition.

My view is that pre ACA healthcare was no longer viable. We needed change. I have read several articles over the last months that have shown that the ACA has forced insurers and hospitals to rethink the way they manage healthcare and these changes have resulted in efficiencies.

 

Any change is difficult -- but change is inevitable. Embrace it and change what does not work, or is not efficient.

 

That is where the GOP lost -- they could have made this a win. Look, the 2012 election was a referendum on the ACA. Obama won - Pubs lost. Now the Pubs keep calling the Wahhhhhhmbulance. 

 

My advice to them - quit acting like spoiled children and grow up -- you can get a win by making the ACA more affordable and efficient. While you are at it, force Obama to simplify the Tax Code and Reorganize the Government to make it more efficient and reduce its size. I'm an attorney and I've seen some of the government paperwork over the last 30 years -- it is now terrifying -- even I have a tough time going through it.

 

But my advice to both sides -- cooperate with one another.

 

The solution is to embrace change, chunk the bad, keep the good, and evolve... yes, GOP, I said "evolve."

 

lol.

post #18 of 298

Of course, I am not finished. Let's talk about this shutdown and debt ceiling.

 

These fiscally responsible Pubs are causing our debt to get more expensive.

 

In 2011, the US was downgraded because we went to the brink.

 

Now, an hour ago:

 

"With the federal government on the brink of a default, a House Republican effort to end the shutdown and extend the Treasury’s borrowing authority collapsed Tuesday night as a major credit agency warned that the United States was on the verge of a costly ratings downgrade."

 

Granted, the tea baggers have a point about making the government more efficient, but I fear they want to radically do away with government instead of slowly slimming it down. They'd rather dafult based on their theories that default would be no big deal.

 

But people buy our debt based on the strength of our economy, and their faith and credit that we will resolve our issues.

 

No more.

 

 

Once you go to default, not only will it kill our economy and cause US panic, it will cause worldwide panic.

 

Also, it will hasten the fall of the dollar -- and the world will move to another currency -- our interest rates will increase and our ability to dominate the financial world will crumble.

 

And we owe it all to a GOP leadership that cowers over 60-80 radical Congressmen and their cohorts in crime like the Koch Brothers. If the economy fails, the Koch Brothers will not suffer, neither will the 1%, and neither will these extremist politicians -- they don't have to worry about re-election - they've gerrymandered the districts to have a "let them eat cake" attitude. Pitiful.

 

It is small business, upper middle, middle, lower upper, the poor, the downtrodden, the hungry -- you name it, who will suffer. It will raise the deficit. Because guess what happens when the economy craters -- more people go on welfare.

 

Thanks,  radical right and the cowards of the GOP Leadership for bringing us to the brink.

 

I suggest you raise the limit, open up the Gov't and negotiate with other leaders on an even bargaining basis.

 

eff you.

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