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post #361 of 861
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Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 
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Originally Posted by teamroper60 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post

 

I have only been offering up thoughts on how a bogey golfer score score better with the skill set he has. 

I think this statement is the fundamental difference between you and I.   Your strategy is fine for a bogey golfer who is playing in a tournament or other event where there is something of significance to gain.   In fact, when the score counts for more than just my handicap, I typically employ the "safe" strategy.   But my goal is not just to minimize my score with my current skill set.   It's to minimize my score with a BETTER skill set and I don't think you can improve your skill set by always playing the safe shots and safe strategy... 

I also don't think you can improve your skill set with just range practice.   At least, I know that to be the case for me...  

Yeah, at least it looks like we mostly agree that these strategies will actually result in a lower score, and that is all I was trying to point out. I like to play a competition as often as I can - which is usually a $2 nassau. But I consider golf to be a game or a sport and I don't want to lose every time.

As for playing with a better skill set, I'll leave it to the coaching types to say what is the best way to develop. Maybe being a 20 cap and employing the strategy of a 5 cap is the best thing for our game - not sure.

But I certainly ENJOY shooting an 85 more than a 95. And I enjoy beating my buddies or placing in tourneys when it happens.

I also don't have any proof yet that employing the 5 cap strategy is really that good for our game. If someone - notably one of the coaching types - has some info on that, I could certainly be convinced. And I'd try to do what was best for that development.

As far as not being able to improve your skillset with range practice and while employing stroke saving atrategies while in a match - yak squeeze. I see your point about the range. No it isn't the course. And I see your point about pulling off shots on the course in game day conditions. There is definitely merit to that. And we might have to do a little digging to get to exactly what degree and at what stage these things take on maximum effectiveness.

But to say "I dont think you can improve your skill set with just going to the range"? Of course you can. You can get better at ballstriking, distance, touch, drawing, fading, high shots, knock down shots, flop shots and everything else and never set foot on a golf course.

Now, taking those concepts and transporting them to the course for practice is certainly one of the steps in getting better pulling them off on the course. I totally get that. But we might disagree on when to debut that 210 yard shot to a green guarded by sand and water - or whatever shot is a low percentage play for us hackers.

I guess maybe I'm trying to have it all - stroke saving strategies AND development. And maybe I'm asking too much. Once again a question for the coaches. But I tend to incorporate things when they have become somewhat reliable on the range first.

For example, After an initial few months of poison ivy, scuba diving and frustration, I went to irons only and immediately quit scoring over 100. Then practiced hybrid at the range until it was more consistent for tee shots. I then added it back for some wide fairway holes. When that got better, a little bit skinnier holes. The scores started to drop some more. Meantime I was working on more 3 wood at the range. When it looked better I then incorporated it for those really wide fairways and hybrid kept getting more use on the more difficult holes. Etc. Etc. And insert same story for whatever approach shots or whatever else.

The point is, of course I didn't just go to irons only and stay there forever because it dropped my scores. I practiced on the range and then incorporated things when they just barely became a good percentage shot and kinda riding the line there. And it was shaky at first, but it got better. I push the limits a little because I want to eventually get a more comprehensive arsenal, just like you. But I usually don't play the shot if I know full well it is a low percentage play that is likely to cost me strokes. Maybe what I'm doing is being a 16 cap and playing a good strategy for a 15 or 14 cap and trying to chase it on down. But while I do, I get to enjoy better scores and sharpen course management skills.

As stated above, maybe the coaches have an answer for which path is best. But I really don't think that my progressive incorporation method (I just made that up) is detrimental to my development. Actually, I'd imagine it us useful in coaching and teaching of many pursuits.

 

Very interesting read.

 

I pretty much suck all around but what your post me think about is perhaps working on one particular thing at a time instead of trying to work on all the different aspects of the game.

post #362 of 861
Went to the range tonight. First time in a while. I hate my driver. I really really hate it. Venting over.
post #363 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissouriHack View Post

Went to the range tonight. First time in a while. I hate my driver. I really really hate it. Venting over.

 

I am loving my driver.   This month, I had the highest FH ever at 53%.  My venting is about putting that went from 32 putts/round to 34 in the same time frame.  Today, I missed three putts inside of 3 feet.  

post #364 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I am loving my driver.   This month, I had the highest FH ever at 53%.  My venting is about putting that went from 32 putts/round to 34 in the same time frame.  Today, I missed three putts inside of 3 feet.  

You tee off I'll putt. Problem solved.b2_tongue.gif
post #365 of 861

Just trying to keep drives in fairway . If I hit it only 200 yards , but in the middle . I'm good . Other than that , short game . You can never practice enough from 100 yds in . 

post #366 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissouriHack View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I am loving my driver.   This month, I had the highest FH ever at 53%.  My venting is about putting that went from 32 putts/round to 34 in the same time frame.  Today, I missed three putts inside of 3 feet.  

You tee off I'll putt. Problem solved.b2_tongue.gif

 

Where were you today between 10:30 and 3:00?  I could have used your putting (did 36 this time).   Continued to do well with driver (57% FHs) and shot 91 (ESC applied) which is a good score on this course (71.2, 128 rating).  I need to double back practice on putting. 

post #367 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissouriHack View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I am loving my driver.   This month, I had the highest FH ever at 53%.  My venting is about putting that went from 32 putts/round to 34 in the same time frame.  Today, I missed three putts inside of 3 feet.  


You tee off I'll putt. Problem solved.b2_tongue.gif

Where were you today between 10:30 and 3:00?  I could have used your putting (did 36 this time).   Continued to do well with driver (57% FHs) and shot 91 (ESC applied) which is a good score on this course (71.2, 128 rating).  I need to double back practice on putting. 
You might need to work on your irons more than putting.
post #368 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 

Interesting discussion so far on jbro06's posts.  But, back to OT please. 

 

There was a reason why I created a bogey golfer only thread so that we can share similar experiences, stories,

 

I started scoring close to bogey golf this fall by devoting the time to golf in a way I did not in my first 20 years of golf dabbling.  Through my beginning years of duffing and hacking, I still managed to learn some important concepts about the game, such as safety, consideration of other players, pace of play, care of the course, scoring strategies, and last but most important keeping an honest score.  What I didn't learn in those first two decades is how to strike the ball properly.  

 

IMHO "bogey" golf is a measure of golfing skill marked only by the score you write on your scorecard.  Based on extensive first hand experience, we don't all keep score the same way.  To measure your skill by a score, IMHO you should have as much commitment to the rules of the game as you have to getting the ball in the hole.  When you're measuring your golf skill only by a number, you don't get to improve your lie, or play every errant ball like it landed in a lateral hazard.  You take your stroke and distance penalties, hit out of divots, play from challenging tees, putt everything out, and lastly write a historically accurate number on the scorecard.

 

Rather than say "bogey" golf I prefer "better" golf.  Better golf simply requires commitment to a correct, repeatable swing.  beneficial range time required a level of focus and specific intent, or it just reinforced the wrong swing mechanics.  When I decided to make a change, I probably mishit 90 of the first 100 range balls.  once I got my irons working, scoring seemed much easier.  My best rounds happened after I devoted meaningful practice time striking irons off natural turf, following weeks of regular conditioning, good sleep, and low stress.  I seem to require all of those things.  Even then, I'm lucky to be in the 80s because I just don't have time to practice my short game.

 

I think its fair to say almost anyone can get better, eventually.  Its just a question of time and devotion.  I recommend do not be obsessed by scores and handicaps.  Play the best golf life will allow, and have fun.  Its a game.

post #369 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissouriHack View Post

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I am loving my driver.   This month, I had the highest FH ever at 53%.  My venting is about putting that went from 32 putts/round to 34 in the same time frame.  Today, I missed three putts inside of 3 feet.  


You tee off I'll putt. Problem solved.b2_tongue.gif

Where were you today between 10:30 and 3:00?  I could have used your putting (did 36 this time).   Continued to do well with driver (57% FHs) and shot 91 (ESC applied) which is a good score on this course (71.2, 128 rating).  I need to double back practice on putting. 
You might need to work on your irons more than putting.


I am missing short putts that I usually make.   Ball striking has been good - one OB in two rounds on a course that is riddled with OB areas.   I had 5 GIRs which means my approach shots were decent.  But I still need to work on my iron shot to increase GIR rate. 

post #370 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post

I am missing short putts that I usually make.   Ball striking has been good - one OB in two rounds on a course that is riddled with OB areas.   I had 5 GIRs which means my approach shots were decent.  But I still need to work on my iron shot to increase GIR rate. 

I only mentioned your irons because 36 putts with all GIR would give you par.
To get putts down, I depend upon my wedge too much and that's only because I get very few GIR.

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.
post #371 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.

 

I didn't meant to imply I am only going to practice putting.  I just need to practice enough to get my putting back to where it was at (32 putts/round).   My practice routine includes everything, from putting to driver.  Iron & bunker shots get most of my attention these days and I am going to add putting to the "attention" list.

post #372 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.

 

I didn't meant to imply I am only going to practice putting.  I just need to practice enough to get my putting back to where it was at (32 putts/round).   My practice routine includes everything, from putting to driver.  Iron & bunker shots get most of my attention these days and I am going to add putting to the "attention" list.


Sure, that makes sense. But you putting is not bad for our class of golfer. I am usually happy with 32-36 putts.

post #373 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I only mentioned your irons because 36 putts with all GIR would give you par.
To get putts down, I depend upon my wedge too much and that's only because I get very few GIR.

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.

 

I am like you in that I get very few GIR and get a lot of my pars by getting up and down.  I think 5 GIR sounds pretty decent for a boger - and might have been part of the source of his 36 putts.  He said he missed a few short ones.  But also (and this might be obvious without stating) for those 5 GIR he was probably much farther from the hole than he might have been had he chipped on.  3-putt range maybe.

 

Relative - I"m interested to read the chapter in Iacas's new book "Stop Practicing 20 Foot Putts".  They can't get that thing out soon enough.

post #374 of 861

Golf for me is more like a continuing journey where I have met my first set of limited goals and have moved the goal posts. I intermittently work on some of the same issues at different times.

 

The short story, started hitting the ball in the fall of 2009 at a nearby range after buying clubs online, no woods just irons. My goal was simple, try to hit the ball well enough to work my way onto a par 3 course to start. Watched all the familiar shows, the golf fix and some games, read as many books as I could get my hands on and watched some golf tournaments on tv focusing on specific elements of the swing one at a time.

 

I am a fast learner in all things especially sports but decided after a while I needed lessons, at 60 years old how much time did I have to play around afterall, so I started with a nearby instructor one lesson a week and practiced this lesson once maybe twice a week. I was able to migrate onto the par 3 by late summer 2010 and tried a local full course late fall 2010 and had some fun, lost a lot of balls and had a lot to work on, left the driver out of the bag and worked mostly on my irons and an occasional 3 wood shot if I could keep it on the course.

 

tore up my right knee in jan 2011 and needed surgery fall of 2011 so no golf that year. Came back in the lwinter of 2012 with just putting and chipping as per doc and at that point realized that no matter how many shots it takes to get to the green you have to be able to put it in the hole so worked alot on putting. Got back onto the par 3 early spring of 2012 and onto a regular course summer of 2012.

 

My simple goal for this game was to have fun and not hold anyone up on a regular course, and have worked hard, changed instructors, changed to better clubs and now every once during the year break 90, shoot mostly in the low 90's and keep it mostly in the fairways with all clubs including driver, play about 4 different courses thru the year. Am I having fun.heck yes.....do I love the challenge, heck yes....Do I still need work, absolutely.......... would like to shoot in the 80s mostly and every once in a while in the 90's. I work on putting in doors over the winters and still take some lessons during the year.

 

May the journey never end........................

post #375 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I only mentioned your irons because 36 putts with all GIR would give you par.
To get putts down, I depend upon my wedge too much and that's only because I get very few GIR.

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.

 

I am like you in that I get very few GIR and get a lot of my pars by getting up and down.  I think 5 GIR sounds pretty decent for a boger - and might have been part of the source of his 36 putts.  He said he missed a few short ones.  But also (and this might be obvious without stating) for those 5 GIR he was probably much farther from the hole than he might have been had he chipped on.  3-putt range maybe.

 

Relative - I"m interested to read the chapter in Iacas's new book "Stop Practicing 20 Foot Putts".  They can't get that thing out soon enough.


I started golfing with much more focus on short game, i.e, chipping & putting are my strength and I rarely three putt.   Once, my average putt per round was 31 (playing slower green courses).   It has gone up to 34 and I feel like I am giving away 2 - 3 strokes unless I get my putting back to my standard.    The reason for putting slump?   I had to devote my practice on iron & (DEEP/HUGE) bunker plays to avoid OBs on tougher new home course.   In the process, I may have neglected keeping up with my putting practices.   

 

I counted my mistakes in yesterday's round.   I "lost" 3 strokes on failing to make short (less than 5 feet) putts, another 2 strokes on bunker play, and 3 strokes on poor 2nd shot (1 OB).   Of the 3 "lost" areas, I think the putting is the easiest (for me) to quickly plug.   The other two areas (bunker & iron) are WIP.and will take longer time to improve.   The good news is, I am back to scoring high 80s & low 90s and looking forward to moving my HI out of boger range (below 16) :beer:

 

One thing about the current course I am playing --- this course has a lot of optical illusions when standing on green.   You see a break going left and in reality, it breaks to right.  What looks like a downward putt is actually an up slope one, etc..  I have recently acquired a yardage booked used at an Web.com tour event played on this course.   It will help me line up my ball better when putting.  

post #376 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post


I started golfing with much more focus on short game, i.e, chipping & putting are my strength and I rarely three putt.   Once, my average putt per round was 31 (playing slower green courses).   It has gone up to 34 and I feel like I am giving away 2 - 3 strokes unless I get my putting back to my standard.    The reason for putting slump?   I had to devote my practice on iron & (DEEP/HUGE) bunker plays to avoid OBs on tougher new home course.   In the process, I may have neglected keeping up with my putting practices.   

 

I counted my mistakes in yesterday's round.   I "lost" 3 strokes on failing to make short (less than 5 feet) putts, another 2 strokes on bunker play, and 3 strokes on poor 2nd shot (1 OB).   Of the 3 "lost" areas, I think the putting is the easiest (for me) to quickly plug.   The other two areas (bunker & iron) are WIP.and will take longer time to improve.   The good news is, I am back to scoring high 80s & low 90s and looking forward to moving my HI out of boger range (below 16) :beer:

 

One thing about the current course I am playing --- this course has a lot of optical illusions when standing on green.   You see a break going left and in reality, it breaks to right.  What looks like a downward putt is actually an up slope one, etc..  I have recently acquired a yardage booked used at an Web.com tour event played on this course.   It will help me line up my ball better when putting.  

 

Short game is also very much my strength.  I don't do anything really impressive - I just don't mess up very often.  The greens I play on aren't very fast, I 3-putt fairly infrequently, and I make a lot of putts from inside 5 feet.  I get up and down about 30% of the time when chipping.  But what I don't do very often is skull it or fat it and waste a shot.  I almost always get it to 1-2 putt range.

 

The odd thing is - as comfortable as I feel chipping and putting, I almost never practice them.  Notably putting.  I might have actually done putting-specific practice 3x in my life.  Once every few months, for about 30 min, I'll get 20 balls or so and spread them around the chipping green and see how many times out of the 20 I can get up and down - so a little chipping and putting practice at the same time.  I spend all my time practicing full swing - which is still my biggest problem.  I'd imagine that is the case for most, but not sure.

 

Bunkers are another story.  I kind of stink at bunkers.  I have probably practiced bunker shots twice ever.  I avoid them like the plague on the course.  I should probably go practice this more now that I think about it.

post #377 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkim291968 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I only mentioned your irons because 36 putts with all GIR would give you par.
To get putts down, I depend upon my wedge too much and that's only because I get very few GIR.

If I had only 36 putts and 5 GIR and 60% Fairways, I'd look at better iron striking to get more GIR or up and down chances.

 

I am like you in that I get very few GIR and get a lot of my pars by getting up and down.  I think 5 GIR sounds pretty decent for a boger - and might have been part of the source of his 36 putts.  He said he missed a few short ones.  But also (and this might be obvious without stating) for those 5 GIR he was probably much farther from the hole than he might have been had he chipped on.  3-putt range maybe.

 

Relative - I"m interested to read the chapter in Iacas's new book "Stop Practicing 20 Foot Putts".  They can't get that thing out soon enough.


I started golfing with much more focus on short game, i.e, chipping & putting are my strength and I rarely three putt.   Once, my average putt per round was 31 (playing slower green courses).   It has gone up to 34 and I feel like I am giving away 2 - 3 strokes unless I get my putting back to my standard.    The reason for putting slump?   I had to devote my practice on iron & (DEEP/HUGE) bunker plays to avoid OBs on tougher new home course.   In the process, I may have neglected keeping up with my putting practices.   

 

I counted my mistakes in yesterday's round.   I "lost" 3 strokes on failing to make short (less than 5 feet) putts, another 2 strokes on bunker play, and 3 strokes on poor 2nd shot (1 OB).   Of the 3 "lost" areas, I think the putting is the easiest (for me) to quickly plug.   The other two areas (bunker & iron) are WIP.and will take longer time to improve.   The good news is, I am back to scoring high 80s & low 90s and looking forward to moving my HI out of boger range (below 16) :beer:

 

One thing about the current course I am playing --- this course has a lot of optical illusions when standing on green.   You see a break going left and in reality, it breaks to right.  What looks like a downward putt is actually an up slope one, etc..  I have recently acquired a yardage booked used at an Web.com tour event played on this course.   It will help me line up my ball better when putting.  


It's really cool that you can putt like a pro.

 

However, you lose something like 40+ strokes (based on your scores of 91) between your tee shots and putts. It stands to reason that you could gain a lot more strokes improving your irons, than improving your already phenomenal putting. This last month or so, most of my lost shots are from my approach shots and pitch shots. The last 3 weeks, I dedicated only 10% or less of my time to putting and have improved it a lot.

 

However, If I could work my way to getting >80% GIR or on the fringe in a strategically good landing locations, I should be able to play par golf on most courses rated below 70. My primary focus is on irons and tee shots, then pitching and chipping. Putting is last for me, because if I can land the green near the pin or pitch in from close to the green it would leave me a very short putt. I just need to get my 10 foot and under putting better.

 

So, with my current experience, I think improving the irons such that you can confidently make 150 yard approaches more than 80% of the time is the goal for us bogey golfers to get us to the next level. At my current skill level, 100 yards and in is very comfortable. I know this because I par many of the holes where my tee shots get me within 100 yards or so.

 

I strongly believe that the next step is to get my 5 iron reliable to 175 and just be able to expect my 7i/8i to make the 150 yard approaches with >80% to the green or approach fringe, I think this is key to get me to the low single digits. The ability to shape shots to be able to change the height trajectory of the irons is nice, and make high tree shots or low distance shots. And later maybe make purposeful draws and fades?

 

 

Not surprising, as it fits into the long game is more important than the short game theory.

post #378 of 861
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meltdwhiskey View Post
 

Short game is also very much my strength.  I don't do anything really impressive - I just don't mess up very often.  The greens I play on aren't very fast, I 3-putt fairly infrequently, and I make a lot of putts from inside 5 feet.  I get up and down about 30% of the time when chipping.  But what I don't do very often is skull it or fat it and waste a shot.  I almost always get it to 1-2 putt range.

 

The odd thing is - as comfortable as I feel chipping and putting, I almost never practice them.  Notably putting.  I might have actually done putting-specific practice 3x in my life.  Once every few months, for about 30 min, I'll get 20 balls or so and spread them around the chipping green and see how many times out of the 20 I can get up and down - so a little chipping and putting practice at the same time.  I spend all my time practicing full swing - which is still my biggest problem.  I'd imagine that is the case for most, but not sure.

 

Bunkers are another story.  I kind of stink at bunkers.  I have probably practiced bunker shots twice ever.  I avoid them like the plague on the course.  I should probably go practice this more now that I think about it.

 

Looks like you are a natural at short game.  If I don't practice putting, I lose my "pendulum" swing path.  

 

I recently changed my strategy to take on bunkers head on.  I don't think I can get out of bogey golfer status unless I take on bunkers with approach shots.   It's my next move up, hence, my focus on iron & bunker practices.

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