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If you could change ONE rule, what would it be? - Page 2

post #19 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

even Tiger and higher up PGA pros have said that hitting out of a divot is a stupid rule and should be replaced. It's essentially Ground Under Repair on a temporary basis.

As for personal responsibility, it doesn't make sense to DQ a guy, simply show him that it was wrong. It may not have been a big deal to Sergio this weekend, but it was to DeVicenzo. Everyone knew what his actual score was...it's not like he was trying to cheat on score to win or something. There is no reason that after handing in a signed scorecard, the official can check it and correct any errors. The fact that DeVicenzo had to accept a higher score because that is what he signed is a joke.
post #20 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
That has nothing to do with what I said.



They're not "PGA Rules." They're the USGA rules, and if you don't play by the rules and brag about it, that says plenty about you.

Ball in divot = "rub of the green." Live with it. The times you get good breaks, like a ball sitting up in the rough, do you "correct" that situation too? Do you push your ball down into the rough, move it onto the hardpan instead of the tuft of grass your ball found, throw balls back into trees when they kick out, etc.?

I'm going to guess... no.
lie in the rough.. ball kicked out from the trees is irrelevant--players are supposed to repair their divots (replace the, fill them with mix, w/e). somebody shouldn't basically be penalized for succeeding in what every golfer tries for off the tee: hit the fairway.

if a player hits a shot and has a bad lie in the rough.. it's not because of the irresponsibility of another player
if a player hits a shot into the trees and has to punch out b/c there's no line.. it's not because of the irresponsibility of another player.
post #21 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by lhshurdl3r View Post
players are supposed to repair their divots (replace the, fill them with mix, w/e). somebody shouldn't basically be penalized for succeeding in what every golfer tries for off the tee: hit the fairway.
There are plenty of courses that don't have the mix on the carts. What about people that walk, you want them to carry the mix around with them. Also, not every divot is a clean divot (with a 1/2" off dirt underneath) and even if they are, a lot of times, its replaced and doesn't take so the grass dies and it becomes a divot again.
post #22 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Allow relief to rake a trap and then drop in the trap if your ball lands in a footprint that has not been raked. Take your fried egg lies as they are in soft sand, but not 3 inch footprints as a "rub of the green."
post #23 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

OB and water hazard shots you got what you deserved. Divots and bad lies are part of the game that is basically meant to be somewhat unfair. Thats what makes it more interesting than other sports. I do feel the penalty is unfair on lost balls. If you believe the ball OB a provisional works fine. On lost balls you usually think you know where it is but can't find it, tall rough. view impeded etc. Since you can lose a ball just off the fairway, especially with the trend to mounds and native grasses on many newer courses there has to be a better way. A one stroke penalty and placing the ball as close to the spot as agreed to by your opponent. After this rule change I would stricly enforce a five minute maximum search for lost balls. I think one of the most important things to consider for possible rule changes are rules that slow down the pace of play. Lost balls has to be close to the top.
post #24 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by iacas View Post
They're not "PGA Rules." They're the USGA rules, and if you don't play by the rules and brag about it, that says plenty about you.

Ball in divot = "rub of the green." Live with it.
What it says about me is that I don't take myself or this game too seriously. I enjoy playing it with friends & we don't follow every archaic rule nor do we have to. None of us is ever going to be in any competitions so it's no big deal to us. It's a game, a past time, something to get away from everything for a few hrs. We all have enough stress at work & home that we don't need to worry about possibly upsetting some USGA officials while we play a game.

Hell of a lot more important things in the world to worry or complain about other than some guy moving his ball out of a divot.
post #25 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

having to play off of Frankenstein's fat foot...now that sucked big time for Shooter McGavin.
post #26 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by hurley9192 View Post
having to play off of Frankenstein's fat foot...now that sucked big time for Shooter McGavin.
LMAO Now I want to see that movie again, I loved it before I was even into golf so I really need to see it now.
post #27 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

After this post, I'll try to refrain from commenting. After all, I have to remind myself that this is a hypothetical thread, and everyone can have their opinions of what rules they don't like.

Personally, I wouldn't change any except perhaps to clarify the one I noted above. But y'all probably knew that...

So, on with my rebuttal, and then silence from me unless I think of a rule _I_ would change.

Originally Posted by hurley9192 View Post
even Tiger and higher up PGA pros have said that hitting out of a divot is a stupid rule and should be replaced. It's essentially Ground Under Repair on a temporary basis.
I've been around golf for a long time and I don't believe I've ever heard Tiger complain about a divot. He was in one at St. Andrews and nearly holed it back in 2005 - surely he'd have said something then, but I distinctly remember him not saying anything negative about it.

As for it being ground under repair, quite simply, it isn't. And again, if there was a "divot" rule, by golly, I have the feeling my ball (and the balls of everyone in the world) would suddenly find a lot more divots than normal. That's what happens when you give good players a chance to lift, clean, and place.

I'm not sure how you're going to define a "divot" well enough to make this hypothetical change in the rules effective.

Originally Posted by hurley9192 View Post
There is no reason that after handing in a signed scorecard, the official can check it and correct any errors. The fact that DeVicenzo had to accept a higher score because that is what he signed is a joke.
Someone wrote down a 5 for me a few weeks ago in the mid-am. I corrected it to 6. Had I just handed the card in, I'd have probably gotten away with it. In other words, I think you're missing the point re: personal responsibility. I rarely hear many of the big-time players or commentators talk about how silly the rule is. The discussion usually seems to come from the golf fans.

The de Vicenzo story is not quite the same as Sergio's. He signed for one higher, not one lower.

Originally Posted by lhshurdl3r View Post
somebody shouldn't basically be penalized for succeeding in what every golfer tries for off the tee: hit the fairway.
As I said, by the same logic, a player who hits a bad shot shouldn't be rewarded with a good lie. So, all those times your ball skipped across water or found a good lie in the rough or kicked out of trees you should have penalized yourself or put your ball back in a lie more appropriate, right?

Originally Posted by lhshurdl3r View Post
if a player hits a shot and has a bad lie in the rough.. it's not because of the irresponsibility of another player
There are plenty of times I'd rather hit off a clean divot (dirt) than a replaced divot. It has little to do with the responsibility (or lack thereof) of another player. Divots are rarely perfectly cut, after all. It's just luck and a quirk of the game.

Again, you can't allow players to lift/clean/place the ball in the fairway because of divots or you're going to have a lot of players finding a lot of divots and cleaning and placing their balls.

Al: "Hey, bad luck, you're on a funny slope there Bob." Bob: "No, look, there's a little imperfection there, it's clearly a week-old divot. I'm going to drop within one clublength here on this flat part."

Originally Posted by Dyna View Post
Hell of a lot more important things in the world to worry or complain about other than some guy moving his ball out of a divot.
Obviously that's true. But this is a golf forum, after all. We're not here to talk about the more important things like Elisha Cuthbert and Paris Hilton on the beach (sarcasm).
post #28 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

No one is going to agree with me on this, probably, but I'll just let me opinion be heard - take it or leave it, I guess since this is just a "What if" thread.

I would take off the stroke and distance. If you hit it O.B., you simply drop (like a hazard) but it's a two stroke penalty instead of stroke and distance. I like that idea better, just my opinion.
post #29 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by CG031 View Post
I would take off the stroke and distance. If you hit it O.B., you simply drop (like a hazard) but it's a two stroke penalty instead of stroke and distance. I like that idea better, just my opinion.
Given the choice between re-hitting and a two-stroke penalty, I'd re-hit (the current rule) every time.

If I go over a green and OB with my second shot, I'm lying four and am still not on the green with your rule. Under the current rule, you lie three in the fairway and can hit the green or something. Similarly on drives: OB is usually near trees. I'd rather hit my third shot in the fairway than drop it amongst trees or way offline.

I know I said I'd keep quiet, but c'mon now, this just doesn't really make sense. I'm all for discussing rules changes or throwing ideas out there, but please put some thought into 'em, guys. Rules that are vague ("what is a divot?") or which are worse than the current ones (this one) don't strike me as being very good suggestions.
post #30 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by CG031 View Post
No one is going to agree with me on this, probably, but I'll just let me opinion be heard - take it or leave it, I guess since this is just a "What if" thread.

I would take off the stroke and distance. If you hit it O.B., you simply drop (like a hazard) but it's a two stroke penalty instead of stroke and distance. I like that idea better, just my opinion.
I'd prefer OB be treated as a lateral hazard - drop within a club length of where it last went out, no nearer the hole, one stroke penalty.
post #31 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

10. The whole rule book is just dumber than Elimidate. Having to hit out of a divot in the middle of a fairway is the "worst rule in golf [13-1]," says Tiger Woods. That was from Sports Illustrated in 2003. Also, I found an article that you wrote in 2005 saying this was the #1 worst rule.

My comment was more directed towards events where it's obvious to millions of people how many strokes a guy took on a hole and then he has to add a stroke because his playing partner wrote down the wrong one. In an event where there are no onlookers, the rule is valid to an extent. If I sign my card and someone comes up and says, "no, you had a 5, not a 6...then you should be able to change it and move forward"
post #32 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

How about being allowed to ground your club in the bunker or hazard. I would love to be able to line up a bunker shot with my club resting on the sand.

It seems to me that as long as the ball is not effected by grounding the club no harm would be done. I am unaware of the intetion of this rule but it sure would be nice to take some practice swings in the bunkers to get a feel for the sand.
post #33 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

I'm surprised noone has mentioned being able to repair spike marks on the green.

I agree with the other posts on the divot relief. If they set a guideline for how deep a hole, or type of hole (i.e. created by the strike of a club, not just any random disturbance) then it's just a judgement/honor call, like so many other things in golf. It's not too unlike deciding what qualifies as casual water.

Relief from player-caused sand trap issues (foot prints, ball resting against rake left in trap, etc.) seems reasonable. A "fix and drop in same location" would be fine.. Dropping a ball straight down in a trap will likely give you a fairly crappy lie anyway.

In general, I guess I don't think a player should be penalized by the actions or negligence of other players.



Also, remember that the rules of golf were not handed down from upon high.. They have changed over time, and will continue to change. Anyone want to play with the stymie rule in effect? USGA rules differ from Royal and Ancient rules.

The USGA even experimented with no penalty for O.B. in 1960. They allowed a re-hit with no penalty (e.g. re-hit from the tee, lying one). That rule may have given Palmer the U.S. Open that year, saving him a stroke on the 14th at Cherry Hills ("The Eternal Summer", Curt Sampson, p.132).
post #34 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by hurley9192 View Post
Also, I found an article that you wrote in 2005 saying this was the #1 worst rule.
The article came from a previous version of this thread. The column was simply a tabulation of the "votes" (posts) of members back then. It wasn't my opinion - I simply collated.

Thanks for the Tiger quote. Here's the link.

Originally Posted by dwsell View Post
How about being allowed to ground your club in the bunker or hazard. I would love to be able to line up a bunker shot with my club resting on the sand.
The problem people will have there is that you would not only be testing the condition of the hazard, but you very well could be improving your lie (particularly in sand).

Originally Posted by dwsell View Post
I am unaware of the intetion of this rule but it sure would be nice to take some practice swings in the bunkers to get a feel for the sand.
That's pretty much exactly why you can't.

Originally Posted by tji View Post
I'm surprised noone has mentioned being able to repair spike marks on the green.
Perhaps spike marks don't really affect the average golfer much? It's mostly a PGA Tour problem in my opinion. I haven't seen an actual spike mark in years on courses I play.

Originally Posted by tji View Post
USGA rules differ from Royal and Ancient rules.
Do they still? I don't think they do. They used to, but I think they've closed the gaps in recent years. The CoR limit in Europe was 0.86 for awhile but that ends this year (or already has), for example.
post #35 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Perhaps spike marks don't really affect the average golfer much? It's mostly a PGA Tour problem in my opinion. I haven't seen an actual spike mark in years on courses I play.
But I see a ton of softspike scuffs. I think those are often worse than metal spike marks.

Do they still? I don't think they do. They used to, but I think they've closed the gaps in recent years. The CoR limit in Europe was 0.86 for awhile but that ends this year (or already has), for example.

The only one I can think of is relief from an embedded lie. I think this came up in the British Open a few weeks ago. A U.S. golfer requested relief and was denied. But, you're right, other than a couple corner cases, the rules for both are identical (maybe even using the same document?).

But, my main point was that the rules of golf are not immutable. They change, or at least are refined/clarified often. Most are logical and reasonable. But, there are some that could be amended within the spirit of the game and of fair competition.
post #36 of 329

Re: If you could change ONE rule, what would it be?

Originally Posted by tji View Post
But I see a ton of softspike scuffs. I think those are often worse than metal spike marks.

Softspike scuffs dont seem to affect the ball roll, & I would gladly take a green full of those over some of the stuff I have seen on greens. Yesterday my home course fertilized every green but not with some spray, they used granules which take time to disolve. Would be nice if they waited till closing time. Pretty hard to putt on greens which were basically covered in small pebbles. The ball would bounce & dance while it went where it wanted to.

The there is another course with quite a few maple trees. A few greens were covered in those helicopter seeds. Completely & utterly useless to even attempt any sort of putt.
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