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Pace Problem - Page 7

post #109 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It's a fact, however the 140,000 number includes players on the lighter used 9 hole executive course.  The actual number was 142,000 and change.  The 18 hole course is usually busy on the first tee from open (as early as 5:30 AM in summer), until 3 PM, then after 5 for 9 hole after work players.  Most tee times are filled with groups of 4.  I've seen Wednesday mornings when I couldn't even get a single walk-on out for up to 2½ hours because the tee sheet was full and everybody was showing up.

 

That's a lot of golf!

post #110 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It's a fact, however the 140,000 number includes players on the lighter used 9 hole executive course.  The actual number was 142,000 and change.  The 18 hole course is usually busy on the first tee from open (as early as 5:30 AM in summer), until 3 PM, then after 5 for 9 hole after work players.  Most tee times are filled with groups of 4.  I've seen Wednesday mornings when I couldn't even get a single walk-on out for up to 2½ hours because the tee sheet was full and everybody was showing up.

how many months a year can you play there? Whats the time between groups teeing off?

post #111 of 282
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It's a fact, however the 140,000 number includes players on the lighter used 9 hole executive course.  The actual number was 142,000 and change.  The 18 hole course is usually busy on the first tee from open (as early as 5:30 AM in summer), until 3 PM, then after 5 for 9 hole after work players.  Most tee times are filled with groups of 4.  I've seen Wednesday mornings when I couldn't even get a single walk-on out for up to 2½ hours because the tee sheet was full and everybody was showing up.

My first GM/Pro/Boss where I'm at was formerly the Director of Golf at the Ocean Club.  He told me they did $9.5 million a year.

post #112 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

It's a fact, however the 140,000 number includes players on the lighter used 9 hole executive course.  The actual number was 142,000 and change.  The 18 hole course is usually busy on the first tee from open (as early as 5:30 AM in summer), until 3 PM, then after 5 for 9 hole after work players.  Most tee times are filled with groups of 4.  I've seen Wednesday mornings when I couldn't even get a single walk-on out for up to 2½ hours because the tee sheet was full and everybody was showing up.

how many months a year can you play there? Whats the time between groups teeing off?

 

The course is open all year, weather allowing.  I've seen years when we only lost a week or two to winter weather, and I've seen years when the course was closed from before Thanksgiving until the end of February because of snow cover.  If there is no snow on the ground, the course will be open as soon as the frost burns off each morning. 

 

Tee sheet interval is set up as follows - from open until 10:30 they alternate 8 and 9 minutes every other slot.  Something like: 8:51, 9:00, 9:08, 9:17, 9:25, etc.  Then starting at 10:30 they are on 9 minute splits for the rest of the day.  There is no "squeezing" done - all play is by the times on the tee sheet.  The starter is not even allowed to slip a 9 hole group or single on the back nine unless there was a gap on the tee sheet between groups when they went off the front.  We start 9 hole players on the back 9 for only the first 1½ hours in the morning, then after that only when there is a legitimate gap in the tee sheet.  Our starting policy is very strict, specifically to avoid cramming more players on the course than it can comfortably hold.

post #113 of 282
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post
 

how many months a year can you play there? Whats the time between groups teeing off?

20

 

30 seconds

 

:dance:

post #114 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

The course is open all year, weather allowing.  I've seen years when we only lost a week or two to winter weather, and I've seen years when the course was closed from before Thanksgiving until the end of February because of snow cover.  If there is no snow on the ground, the course will be open as soon as the frost burns off each morning.

 

Tee sheet interval is set up as follows - from open until 10:30 they alternate 8 and 9 minutes every other slot.  Something like: 8:51, 9:00, 9:08, 9:17, 9:25, etc.  Then starting at 10:30 they are on 9 minute splits for the rest of the day.  There is no "squeezing" done - all play is by the times on the tee sheet.  The starter is not even allowed to slip a 9 hole group or single on the back nine unless there was a gap on the tee sheet between groups when they went off the front.  We start 9 hole players on the back 9 for only the first 1½ hours in the morning, then after that only when there is a legitimate gap in the tee sheet.  Our starting policy is very strict, specifically to avoid cramming more players on the course than it can comfortably hold.

based on a 11 month season that's 400+ golfers a day everyday. Not sure how that can be.

post #115 of 282
Quote:
One thing which speeds up rounds is the use of Stableford rules.

 

This is an excellent suggestion.

 

Unless you're playing in the Sunday medal, or are collecting cards for a handicap, strokeplay is extraneous for many mid-to-high handicap golfers, I think. 

 

Having played a lot of golf in both the U.S. and the U.K., I also think the British preference for matchplay (at least for friendly matches) makes a big difference to speed of play. I try to encourage American friends to play matchplay, too, but I find they are often reluctant - not having a card at the end of the round to add up seems to cause alarm, when it comes to reflecting on the round in the clubhouse afterwards.

 

I think matchplay makes players more creative. When you're not sweating about your card, the long 4-iron over the lake onto the green starts to look like an interesting proposition.

 

However, the time advantages are obvious. A two-ball stands on the first tee of a short par 4. Player 1 thinks he's maybe found the water, Player 2 finds the fairway. Player 2 then nails his second to the pin. Player 1 reaches his ball, sees it's wet, and realizes that a drop + penalty is a waste of time and concedes the hole, and the match goes in search of the next tee...

post #116 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScouseJohnny View Post

 

This is an excellent suggestion.

 

Unless you're playing in the Sunday medal, or are collecting cards for a handicap, strokeplay is extraneous for many mid-to-high handicap golfers, I think. 

 

Having played a lot of golf in both the U.S. and the U.K., I also think the British preference for matchplay (at least for friendly matches) makes a big difference to speed of play. I try to encourage American friends to play matchplay, too, but I find they are often reluctant - not having a card at the end of the round to add up seems to cause alarm, when it comes to reflecting on the round in the clubhouse afterwards.

 

I think matchplay makes players more creative. When you're not sweating about your card, the long 4-iron over the lake onto the green starts to look like an interesting proposition.

 

However, the time advantages are obvious. A two-ball stands on the first tee of a short par 4. Player 1 thinks he's maybe found the water, Player 2 finds the fairway. Player 2 then nails his second to the pin. Player 1 reaches his ball, sees it's wet, and realizes that a drop + penalty is a waste of time and concedes the hole, and the match goes in search of the next tee...

 



Or Player 1 hits a 3 iron off the tee, Player 2 thinks he can hit the green so waits 15 minutes for it to clear then fats his tee shot 30 yds :)
post #117 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post
 

based on a 11 month season that's 400+ golfers a day everyday. Not sure how that can be.

I don't doubt it. That course is a 36 hole facility in an area of the city with dense population. In the summer my former home course was averaging 235 people on Sat and Sun and it's 30 miles from Denver in a rural town population of 7590. Golf is big biz in CO. More than once I had to wait for a cart to come in because all were out on the course. And golf is a year long sport here. I am a CO native. Despite our reputation for big snow we average 300 days a year of sunshine. I golfed more Nov-Feb than I did Mar-Jun.

post #118 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

The course is open all year, weather allowing.  I've seen years when we only lost a week or two to winter weather, and I've seen years when the course was closed from before Thanksgiving until the end of February because of snow cover.  If there is no snow on the ground, the course will be open as soon as the frost burns off each morning.

 

Tee sheet interval is set up as follows - from open until 10:30 they alternate 8 and 9 minutes every other slot.  Something like: 8:51, 9:00, 9:08, 9:17, 9:25, etc.  Then starting at 10:30 they are on 9 minute splits for the rest of the day.  There is no "squeezing" done - all play is by the times on the tee sheet.  The starter is not even allowed to slip a 9 hole group or single on the back nine unless there was a gap on the tee sheet between groups when they went off the front.  We start 9 hole players on the back 9 for only the first 1½ hours in the morning, then after that only when there is a legitimate gap in the tee sheet.  Our starting policy is very strict, specifically to avoid cramming more players on the course than it can comfortably hold.

based on a 11 month season that's 400+ golfers a day everyday. Not sure how that can be.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post
 

based on a 11 month season that's 400+ golfers a day everyday. Not sure how that can be.

I don't doubt it. That course is a 36 hole facility in an area of the city with dense population. In the summer my former home course was averaging 235 people on Sat and Sun and it's 30 miles from Denver in a rural town population of 7590. Golf is big biz in CO. More than once I had to wait for a cart to come in because all were out on the course. And golf is a year long sport here. I am a CO native. Despite our reputation for big snow we average 300 days a year of sunshine. I golfed more Nov-Feb than I did Mar-Jun.

 

Consider that  a good 25% of those "rounds" are 9 hole players, and we regularly put a 9 hole group off the first tee, then had another group take their place on the course on 10.  I honestly don't know just how the numbers break down, just that those are the total figures which have been published.

post #119 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

 

 

Consider that  a good 25% of those "rounds" are 9 hole players, and we regularly put a 9 hole group off the first tee, then had another group take their place on the course on 10.  I honestly don't know just how the numbers break down, just that those are the total figures which have been published.

we don't count 9 holes as a round. say we did 500 9 hole rounds for the sake of adding total rounds we would count that as 250 rounds. anyway you slice it you guys have a lot of play

post #120 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

 

 

Consider that  a good 25% of those "rounds" are 9 hole players, and we regularly put a 9 hole group off the first tee, then had another group take their place on the course on 10.  I honestly don't know just how the numbers break down, just that those are the total figures which have been published.

That is surprising. At Hyland Hills, which is a similar facility, just a little bigger, they limit the 9 hole golfers to the 9 hole courses. But it's not an exec course. Unless my memory is failing the 9 hole courses at Foothills are a par 3 and an exec.

post #121 of 282
Thread Starter 

Still here, looking for ideas.

 

The GM said the owners are thinking about raising our fee to decrease play.

 

You would think that would help the pace, but the higher the fee the more golfers expect from you.

post #122 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

Still here, looking for ideas.

 

The GM said the owners are thinking about raising our fee to decrease play.

 

You would think that would help the pace, but the higher the fee the more golfers expect from you.

 

That may be a very good idea.....

 

By decreasing traffic, they'll not only reduce traffic, but that will also result in better course conditions and reduced operating expenses.  It will also allow for more personal attention from the staff towards each individual golfer.....all good things from both the customer's and owner's perspective.

 

But, and it's a big but.......you need to be able to forecast the "sweet spot".  The increased rate that will reduce play, but will make up for the reduction in play while still maintaining revenues.  If they increase the rate by 20%, but it results in a 50% reduction of play, they're not going to be able to maintain the revenues.  Conversely, if they increase the rate by 20%, but only see a 10% reduction in play, they have additional opportunity in the rate.

post #123 of 282

Quite a few courses here have gone to tiered fees and it really hasn't done anything to deter people from playing. Peak times are still peak times and golfers will spend more. I used my golf Now free foursome last Sunday to book a time I usually wouldn't and I was amazed how many people were out during the football games. In fact at my home course you can't even book some peak times without a membership. Usually the course is nearly empty at the end of the day when fees are cheapest. It ranges from $74-$28 depending on season and time of day.

post #124 of 282
Thread Starter 

RickK:

 

Except for the Ranger hounding you, that sounds like me.  Normally I meet players in the parking lot with a cart and after, "Welcome. How ya doin?" I ask, "Have you been here before?"

 

I don't like to overload them with a Starter talk that they are going to forget immediately or set the stage for a bad outing with negative issues.  The Pace is on the one sign on the signholders.

 

I tell them the pin position, that day's cart path policy and help them with tee selection if they are not familiar with the course.

 

I always finish with, "Have fun!"

- - - - - -

For three years (up until 2 years ago) we had a fulltime Marshal and a fulltime Starter.  When I would marshal, I kept a log of where I saw each group.  I'd make sure I saw everyone twice per nine.

 

We now work those duties in with other duties: Starter, Marshal, Range, Carts, Bagdrop, laundry, housekeeping.  I'm working on a plan where one of us would make a marshal run at one hour and two hours after the first tee time when the tee sheet is solid, to make sure they were to five and nine.  We'd do whatever we decide to do about slower groups and then turn it over to the Pro/GM.

 

My plan is that those first two contacts will be pleasant and constructive (Good Cop) and let the Pro/GM take whatever  unpleasant steps may be necessay.

 

I know it will still be slow on some days, but everyone will have seen us early on.
 

post #125 of 282

Boy, from what I've read, those who do the job of 'keeping the course moving' are kind of between that rock and hard spot.  I have no real fixes, but here are some observations and my ideas:

 

1. Played on of the best courses in my area this fall.  They have 10 minute starting time intervals.  It was the slowest round I've played (5.5 hours) in YEARS!  At what point do tee time intervals fix slow play?  No answer here!

 

2. The groups who play from the tips are usually influenced by the one guy in the group who can break 80.  The other guys are overmatched and slow down pace.  Idea:  Close the back tees on weekends/busy days or move them up to the BACK of the next closer tee boxes.

 

3.  The MOST time I spend waiting during a round is caused by the group in front of me playing on and around the green like it's Sunday at the US Open.  Idea:  Establish a REASONABLE amount of time it should take to chip on, putt out, etc.  Look for the US Open guys and time them.  Share with them what is reasonable and how their group compared.  This way, you have something tangible to share with a group playing at US Open pace while the course backs up.

 

4.  This is a great idea I saw on a public course while playing on a Sunday afternoon:  The course hired young kids, probably 14-16 years old as spotters on some holes where tee ball landing areas resulted in players spending time looking for balls.  Much easier to hit that 2nd shot in a timely manner when someone has already FOUND your tee ball.

 

5.  People show up LATE for their tee time.  I liked the story about a professional golfer playing in his first Masters tournament.  The official starter told him this tee time wasn't the 'show up on the tee box' time but it was the time for him to be teed off and GONE from the tee box.  Penalizing late players by moving the NEXT group who is ready should provide an instant lesson:  Show up late for your tee time at this course and you LOSE your tee time instantly!  If the late group has an issue, offer them the next available tee time or refund their money.

 

Finally, there is no excuse for slow play other than ignorance.  My wife has been playing for 5 years and regularly shoots 100-120 from the forward tees.  Our usual pace is 3.30 - 3:45 for 18 holes.  And that's a leisurely pace that includes my wife hitting several 'do-over' shots.  If you can't complete a round in 4 hours, YOU are the problem!

 

dave

post #126 of 282
Thread Starter 

I believe the difference in ideas comes from the difference in viewpoints.

 

I don't believe there is a more difficult viewpoint than that of the person who is trying to speed up a slow group, not knowing if they are going to be the type of group that understands they are struggling or the type of group that paid their money and, dammit, they want you to quit bothering them.

 

I notice that no one who has posted has ever been the problem group.

 

:whistle:

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