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Pace Problem - Page 11

post #181 of 281

After hearing the back and forth between players and those who are management/employee of public courses I am convinced that there is no solution to the pace of play issue on public courses. We will be having this same conversation 5 years 10 years and 20 years from now.

 

We here in North America have too much of a sense of entitlement (MYSELF INCLUDED). In Europe there are many course where you have to show and achieve a certain handicap before you can play. Imagine how that would play out over on this side of the pond.

 

IMHO the only way pace of play can be managed is if there is a PENALTY for slow play.

 

The only way whereby a PENALTY can be effectively enforced is on a private course where booking privileges can be taken away.

 

A public course must always balance the rights of one playing customer with another.

 

If they were to ban slow players they are taking revenue away. Of course some will say that they would attract new customers that want a good pace of play but I am not so sure is it that simple.

post #182 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

After hearing the back and forth between players and those who are management/employee of public courses I am convinced that there is no solution to the pace of play issue on public courses. We will be having this same conversation 5 years 10 years and 20 years from now.

 

We here in North America have too much of a sense of entitlement (MYSELF INCLUDED). In Europe there are many course where you have to show and achieve a certain handicap before you can play. Imagine how that would play out over on this side of the pond.

 

IMHO the only way pace of play can be managed is if there is a PENALTY for slow play.

 

The only way whereby a PENALTY can be effectively enforced is on a private course where booking privileges can be taken away.

 

A public course must always balance the rights of one playing customer with another.

 

If they were to ban slow players they are taking revenue away. Of course some will say that they would attract new customers that want a good pace of play but I am not so sure is it that simple.

 

This is an accurate assessment of the issues I dealt with every day I worked in the starter booth.  It's a difficult balancing act.

post #183 of 281

Would public courses ever be willing to extend the tee time spacing?  Most public courses have tee times that are spaced 8 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes and one course I will never play again had 7 minute tee times (that was a 5.5-6 hour round on a Saturday morning)?  I guess it's all about the money and booking players, but it seems like longer spacing say 12 minutes, would make a huge difference and quicken up the pace.  

post #184 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

Would public courses ever be willing to extend the tee time spacing?  Most public courses have tee times that are spaced 8 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes and one course I will never play again had 7 minute tee times (that was a 5.5-6 hour round on a Saturday morning)?  I guess it's all about the money and booking players, but it seems like longer spacing say 12 minutes, would make a huge difference and quicken up the pace.  

Some courses here do stagger tee times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

After hearing the back and forth between players and those who are management/employee of public courses I am convinced that there is no solution to the pace of play issue on public courses. We will be having this same conversation 5 years 10 years and 20 years from now.

 

We here in North America have too much of a sense of entitlement (MYSELF INCLUDED). In Europe there are many course where you have to show and achieve a certain handicap before you can play. Imagine how that would play out over on this side of the pond.

 

IMHO the only way pace of play can be managed is if there is a PENALTY for slow play.

 

The only way whereby a PENALTY can be effectively enforced is on a private course where booking privileges can be taken away.

 

A public course must always balance the rights of one playing customer with another.

 

If they were to ban slow players they are taking revenue away. Of course some will say that they would attract new customers that want a good pace of play but I am not so sure is it that simple.

 

Our home course does bring handicap into it by recommending tees. Another requires permission from the pro shop to play the championship tees. Others do penalize slow golfers with the gps cart. If they fall behind the cart gives warnings and will eventually be disabled if they don't catch up. I think that's better than interaction with a ranger. You can't argue with a cart. People know the policy and it definitely forces people to keep pace.

post #185 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgolfer View Post
 

Would public courses ever be willing to extend the tee time spacing?  Most public courses have tee times that are spaced 8 minutes, sometimes 10 minutes and one course I will never play again had 7 minute tee times (that was a 5.5-6 hour round on a Saturday morning)?  I guess it's all about the money and booking players, but it seems like longer spacing say 12 minutes, would make a huge difference and quicken up the pace.  

 

Think of the math in dollars and cents.  

 

8 minute interval = 30 golfers per hour starting

 

12 minute interval = 20 gofers per hour starting

 

If the course charges $40 per golfer that is potentially a $400 per hour loss of revenue.  How many businesses do you know of that could take that hit and stay in business?

 

Even dropping to 10 minutes is still $200 per hour in lost opportunity for income.

 

My home course staggers 8 and 9 minute intervals from open until 10:30, then 9 minutes for the rest of the day.  The difference is approximately one foursome per hour.  In midsummer that means that they get 4 more players per hour for the first 5 hours - 20 more players at $40 each is $800 a day.  That alone covers most or all of the salaries paid to the shop staff and seasonal workers.  

 

Playing with the intervals is playing with money, not just time.

post #186 of 281

That's why our course also has tiered fees throughout the day. The best times of the day are the highest and not coincidentally the most spaced out. Some are only available to members.

post #187 of 281

Help me understand the impact of timing between tee times.

 

I can understand a longer interval if the holes are space far away from each other like a lot of residential or resort courses.

 

But what about a typical muni course where the holes are near each other. Why couldn't a 8 minute interval be reasonable?

 

My course is of the old design and was established in 1910. It is a bit hilly on the front 9 but reasonably flat on the back 9.

 

We have 8 minute intervals and a 4:15 round is easily achievable even on most weekends all day long.

 

I know there is a huge difference between a private vs public course but the typical players' handicap should be similar.

 

Good idea on using the cart to make sure everyone moves along but what happens when the whole course is slow. Does every cart stop and how does that help.

 

Also if too many customers get pissed off with the perceived rushing of them thru the course and they quit coming back can management stick to this policy?

 

As for the use of handicaps to limit players I see lots of NA courses using handicaps as a suggestion for choice of tee boxes but what about using they to limit who can actually play period?

post #188 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post

Help me understand the impact of timing between tee times.

I can understand a longer interval if the holes are space far away from each other like a lot of residential or resort courses.

But what about a typical muni course where the holes are near each other. Why couldn't a 8 minute interval be reasonable?


Because on a typical Muni it can take 5 minutes for the "Pro from Dover" to wait for the group in front to get out to 400 yards because he "once striped one out there 260 or so", so he better wait to be sure. When he DOES go, he clanks one 130 yds into the woods. THEN the other guys go and hit their 200 yard wormburners, then go help the first guy look for his ball. "Hey! I'm entitled to my 5 minutes!", chips himself back to the fairway and now he's gonna wait for the green to clear from 250 yds out because he once hit his 3 wood that far back in 1987 "so he better wait to be sure"... And that goes on for 18 holes. IT can take 8 minutes for some foursomes just to tee off! IF you have 8 minute tee times, you might as well invoke the "synchronized tee off" system. All 4 people swing at the same time.
post #189 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by ay33660 View Post
 

Help me understand the impact of timing between tee times.

 

I can understand a longer interval if the holes are space far away from each other like a lot of residential or resort courses.

 

But what about a typical muni course where the holes are near each other. Why couldn't a 8 minute interval be reasonable?

 

My course is of the old design and was established in 1910. It is a bit hilly on the front 9 but reasonably flat on the back 9.

 

We have 8 minute intervals and a 4:15 round is easily achievable even on most weekends all day long.

 

I know there is a huge difference between a private vs public course but the typical players' handicap should be similar.

 

Good idea on using the cart to make sure everyone moves along but what happens when the whole course is slow. Does every cart stop and how does that help.

 

Also if too many customers get pissed off with the perceived rushing of them thru the course and they quit coming back can management stick to this policy?

 

As for the use of handicaps to limit players I see lots of NA courses using handicaps as a suggestion for choice of tee boxes but what about using they to limit who can actually play period?

 

It isn't the distance between the holes that matters - that's the same for everyone.  It's the average time it takes to play each hole which is the key.  The length of the hole and the difficulty that may be encountered are what dictate how long it should take a foursome to play a hole.  There must be some allowance for the problems which may have to be dealt with.  Consideration must also be given for the most typical level of player that will be the largest part of the customer base.  

post #190 of 281

One thing that gets overlooked some is that first group of the day sets the pace for the day until a slower group follows, it's just like traffic on the freeway once 1 car slows then the one after gets slowed down even more until you get to 6 hour pace.

post #191 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

Think of the math in dollars and cents.  

8 minute interval = 30 golfers per hour starting

12 minute interval = 20 gofers per hour starting

If the course charges $40 per golfer that is potentially a $400 per hour loss of revenue.  How many businesses do you know of that could take that hit and stay in business?

Even dropping to 10 minutes is still $200 per hour in lost opportunity for income.

My home course staggers 8 and 9 minute intervals from open until 10:30, then 9 minutes for the rest of the day.  The difference is approximately one foursome per hour.  In midsummer that means that they get 4 more players per hour for the first 5 hours - 20 more players at $40 each is $800 a day.  That alone covers most or all of the salaries paid to the shop staff and seasonal workers.  

Playing with the intervals is playing with money, not just time.
And that is why there are 5.5 hour rounds on lots of public courses on the weekends. If you want people to average 15 minutes a hole for a four and a half hour round, then spacing tee times every 8 minutes is a recipe for disaster.
post #192 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

Because on a typical Muni it can take 5 minutes for the "Pro from Dover" to wait for the group in front to get out to 400 yards because he "once striped one out there 260 or so", so he better wait to be sure. When he DOES go, he clanks one 130 yds into the woods. THEN the other guys go and hit their 200 yard wormburners, then go help the first guy look for his ball. "Hey! I'm entitled to my 5 minutes!", chips himself back to the fairway and now he's gonna wait for the green to clear from 250 yds out because he once hit his 3 wood that far back in 1987 "so he better wait to be sure"... And that goes on for 18 holes. IT can take 8 minutes for some foursomes just to tee off! IF you have 8 minute tee times, you might as well invoke the "synchronized tee off" system. All 4 people swing at the same time.

On the Nose!
post #193 of 281
Keep track of offending parties then don't allow them to have early tee times. Let the faster guys and girls go first in the morning then let the hackers. Tell everyone tee times are determined by play speed history, which you keep track of. When 5 hour fivesomes wanna play, let them tee off at 1 or 2 pm. They'll speed up when it starts getting dark.
post #194 of 281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

I have engaged our management company on the issue, so I will take a back seat now.

They have sent me the entire "Pacesetter Times" pace-o- play manual, asking for my feedback.

 

It is detailed and specific, saying exactly what groups falling behind will be ask to do.  After two "visits", without improvement, they are asked to leave.  That is only for the "Pacesetter Times", the first hour of tee times on a busy day.

 

The plan is labor-intensive, requiring more staff and time with the golfers than our budget would allow.

 

But, the idea and the outline is there, and we just need to adapt it to our course.

post #195 of 281
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballsndrama View Post

Keep track of offending parties then don't allow them to have early tee times. Let the faster guys and girls go first in the morning then let the hackers. Tell everyone tee times are determined by play speed history, which you keep track of. When 5 hour fivesomes wanna play, let them tee off at 1 or 2 pm. They'll speed up when it starts getting dark.

That's the essence of it.

post #196 of 281

I almost think shotgun starts would be better for the course revenue and put a time limit on it.

post #197 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster View Post
 

I almost think shotgun starts would be better for the course revenue and put a time limit on it.


We actually do that on Saturdays (not my idea) and more often than not it turns into a nightmare at the turns. The guys on the back nine are trying to make a decision whether to finish the back or go to the front and if new play is showing up nobody quite knows what to do. Then it's hard to get back into a slot to finish the un-played holes.

 

And this is on a course with very little play. I can't even imagine the nightmare it would be on a really busy course.

post #198 of 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 


We actually do that on Saturdays (not my idea) and more often than not it turns into a nightmare at the turns. The guys on the back nine are trying to make a decision whether to finish the back or go to the front and if new play is showing up nobody quite knows what to do. Then it's hard to get back into a slot to finish the un-played holes.

 

And this is on a course with very little play. I can't even imagine the nightmare it would be on a really busy course.


Hmm, I have seen it where they only shotgun say the front 9 and then if any walk up play shows up they will let them go if there is a gap when they finish 18th hole, forgive me I failed to mention my course is links style so the front doesn't end at the clubhouse. I know that pisses off some of the groups that get a group put in front of them but it also sends a message as well. I guess if this becomes a real issue in the future and I think all courses need to implement it in order to work though is a time limit for your round, I know some will say that's ridiculous but a 5 hour limit at my course would be a good thing it gets so ridiculous I have seen 7 hour rounds there. It's a tough layout is why we have pace issues and putting it at 4.5 would put too much pressure on some folks, yesterday my group was able to finish just under 4 hours but that is moving along at a good pace.

 

http://www.roddyranch.com/

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