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Pace Problem - Page 14

post #235 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

 

 

So, let's focus on what to do with groups that have been warned twice and have not sped up.  What should that 3rd visit from the marshal be?  Please bear in mind that with some of our golfers, they find out they should not be on our course, too late, and they just physically cannot play any faster.  They are attracted to us because we are a "gotta play" facility, #1 in the State.

The groups that routinely are slow will be slow no matter whether you have GPS, easy pins, clocks, whatever. They don't have a clue.  The ONLY way to address the problem is for the marshal (after two warnings?. Really?) is to tell them to pick up and move to the next hole.

 

If they get mad, ask yourself whether you want to piss off one group, or continue to piss off the five groups that have been waiting behind them all day.

 

If you are truly a must-play facility, I would guess that prospective golfers will assume you have your stuff together, and know how to deal with slow play.

post #236 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

I know a lot of courses in tourist areas put GPS on the carts, and they have pace of play timers on them as well. So, if your willing to invest in a high tech solution, that might help out. One it gives everyone GPS. Two the pace of play is always in view on the cart. 

 

You probably could keep a list of names and times, just keep some stats for a while, see if you can figure out some trends. If one group is causing you problems, black list them if you want to go that way. 

 

When it comes to dealing customers, you might have to deal with the fact you are going to piss people off. 


I'm laughing because I have worked at two Florida courses during the Winter and they are staffed with guys from Chicago and the Northeast.  They are very good at pissing people off.  :pound:  "Hey . . . you talkin' to me?"

 

My jaw dropped three years when I first heard Mr. Chicago tell a group that got to 18 fifteen minutes behind pace, "I don't give a shit what you have to say, get the Hell outta here."

 

Here we are known as warm, friendly and hospitable, so we go to great lengths to not piss people off.

 

As to whether we have our act together, I'm on my third GM/Pro, and I'm here looing for advice.  :whistle:

 

GPS will give as some ammo, I feel.

post #237 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

No.  I don't know what I said that would suggest that.

 

I did say, or meant to say, that the first hole is/has always been CPO.

 

Got it.  I misunderstood.

post #238 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldo View Post


I'm not sure I agree with this; in the 80's I had the first tee time at Cog Hill 2 & 4 on Sundays, the 90's first tee time at Balmoral Woods, recently I only play weekdays and only at the course I can get the first tee time ( usually George Dunne or Waters Edge ). I have never had the second group off come close to me or within 30 mins of my time.

In the 70's my father taught me ready call, or as his friends use to say what are you waiting for junior. My groups never have " honors" , each player is hitting within seconds of the last hit, there is no your away it's your ready then putt, and I've never had a regular player then couldn't consistently shoot 85 or lower . We don't do give me' s or mulligans. The best part is we talk golf, crack jokes, enjoy the great shots, and it's always done in well under 3.5 hours.

Why is this. We see golf as an athletic event. You wouldn't practice your jump shot in the middle of a basketball game. You don't move up and down the football field at a leisurely pace. A baseball player doesn't find his stroke by leaving the box after every pitch and analyzing his mechanics. The more an athlete stays in motion the better he performs. Somehow it seems I'm always seeing golfers that treat it as a casual activity that gets them out of the house and yet they think every swing is for the Green Jacket. Play the game like a sport an athletic event and spend the saved time talking with your guys while smoking a good cigar. I know these thought don't apply to the readers of this board. It seems most already keep a great pace and play the sport the right way.

I was on board with you until you brought up other sports.  I can't watch baseball anymore because of all the time the batter spends outside of the batters box going through his pre-swing routine which often includes practice swings.  I guess you never saw a basketball player on the foul line making practice motions before his shot or a big offensive lineman lumbering up to the huddle in slow motion so he can catch his breath.

 

While Kevin Na might be the exception, most pro's take a few practice swings before each shot and let's not even get into Keegan Bradley's pre-shot routine.  I know guys that take practice swings with their putter and don't even know why except that's what a book told them to do.  Many books out there talk about pre-shot routines, so now almost everyone has one and if get interrupted they start from the beginning.  If you say something they don't think they're playing slow because they know they're faster than the pro's and that's what they compare themselves too.

 

Want to speed up golf for the rest of us, force the pro's to play faster and set the right example.  

post #239 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

I was on board with you until you brought up other sports.  I can't watch baseball anymore because of all the time the batter spends outside of the batters box going through his pre-swing routine which often includes practice swings.  I guess you never saw a basketball player on the foul line making practice motions before his shot or a big offensive lineman lumbering up to the huddle in slow motion so he can catch his breath.

 

While Kevin Na might be the exception, most pro's take a few practice swings before each shot and let's not even get into Keegan Bradley's pre-shot routine.  I know guys that take practice swings with their putter and don't even know why except that's what a book told them to do.  Many books out there talk about pre-shot routines, so now almost everyone has one and if get interrupted they start from the beginning.  If you say something they don't think they're playing slow because they know they're faster than the pro's and that's what they compare themselves too.

 

Want to speed up golf for the rest of us, force the pro's to play faster and set the right example.  

 



So true, I understand these guys need to be much more deliberate about their games then the rest of us, but c'mon already...instead of "while we're young" I think this year's campaign should be "practice what you preach".
post #240 of 289

a course I play regularly has gps and the gps system tells you what your pace of play is. Despite this, the course is still slow (I've resorted to playing the morning back 9 and super-twilight in the afternoon). One reason, the pace is set at 4h30m, so as long as the group is on that pace, the cart says they're doing fine. Why would the cart not have a faster pace as the default? Why can't the cart then instruct the group to skip a hole? Most will ignore it for sure, but I bet they'd at least play a little faster. Also, the GPS should have a way to tell each group's individual time. In other words, track how long each group takes to play each hole based on the position of the group in front of them. If the GPS systems your course is looking at doesn't have this functionality please let me know, as I don't think this would be a challenging feature to add after market and I have software developer friends :).

post #241 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

Why someone doesn't make a side by side video of how little things here and there add up (or if someone already has, make a better one because I can't think of any that got traction) by putting a timer at the bottom puzzles me.


 

Frame A Frame B Time saved
4some agrees on ready play, no honors spends time choosing order 00:15
each player gets ready after he hits everyone packs up after last person tees off 00:15
everyone walks to their ball, stays out of way of current ball in play everyone stays behind person in play 00:45
     

 

etc...

 

The third row is something I harp on around here all the time.  The first two I see pretty pretty rarely.  I play munis with lots of strangers, and have pretty much never been in a group where honors was ever considered except when someone makes a birdie, and even then only sometimes.  But the third one is brutal.  I'm long, so I do 1/4 of the group myself, walking up as close to level with my ball as possible staying out of the way of guys hitting before me.  But when there are other longer players in my group, WAY too often that other long guy will feel the need to stop 100 yards before his ball, wait for the short hitting oldster to hit, then walk up to his ball.  This is most maddening when this other longer hitter is generally just a bit shorter than me, so he's expecting to hit his ball first and I'd have to make a big show of it hustling over to my ball from the rough (when I'm in the fairway!), making final club choice, and rushing through my pre-shot (or ditch it entirely) to hit before he gets close to his ball.

 

Also, people have been saying no one thinks they're part of the problem.  I'll admit that though I'm hyper dedicated to ready golf and the third row above and I walk very quickly -- to the point I'll often even jog down steep hills from elevated greens or tees or whatever -- my pre-shot routine can really drag, and on the rare occasions I'm on a quick course I need to be conscious of not taking forever once it's my turn or I'll be part of the pace problem.

post #242 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 


Absolutely right on.  Good suggestions, and I will address those.  What I really need now is suggestions on what to do with Slow groups who do not speed up after two warnings.

 

Also, we have one of those clubs people can join for faster play, and hoyty-toytyness in our area, and I'm a member there, too.  They have GPS and they also have marshals, which they thought they could eliminate when they went to GPS, but found they could not.  (My uncle was marshal there and I was to replace him when he quit.  He died in 2007, and when I went in to sign on, marshal had been eliminated, and I was place in Player Services.). 

 

That is a much easier course to play, and their pace is 4 1/2.  We are a resort area, and even that course has resort golfers.

 

1.  Tees.  We have wrestled with the course being too long from the forward "mens'" tee from the beginning, but did not have the budget and some holes would not accommodate building a sixth set of tees.  So, 2 years ago I suggested we have a Combo Tee (after I played the course in my mind).  We did that, its rated and sloped, and it's on the card.  The regular member group I play with moved to it last year, after resisting it a year.  The owners did not allow some I suggested to be moved forward, and those holes are still Pace killers.  The member group I play with plays different forward tees than the card, but within what is allowed to not change the slope and rating.

 

I will suggest closing the back two tees on busy days.  They are 7000 and 7300.  If someone wants a long course, 6700 would be the longest.

 

2.  Nothing anyone does or says is going to change our course superintendent.  We have 5 "quadrants" and the pin is rotated each day.  All last year I, and others, suggested a placement on the first green never be used, to no avail.  The first hole is a bad start.  Long, cart path only, and very tough green with tough pin placements.  I have suggested ways to be able to take carts on the fairway, but that has not happened. It is a long walk from the cart path to some tee shots.

 

3.  The cart paths  have exactly those markings, and we have 150-stakes in the fairways.  Sprinkler heads are marked and we're getting GPS next month, so I've been told.  One of the main benefits of GPS is that you can identify slow play on it, and show groups how they have made everyone behind them slow.

 

4.  Good idea.  Where do you suggest that be?

 

5.  The GM put clocks on 1 and 10, which are ignored and abused (reset by golfer).  Because of the layout of our course, pace reminders should be at 5, 9, 13, and 17, the 1, 2, 3, and 4 hour points.  My take is that clocks are ineffective because golfers don't relate to their tee time, how long they've been on the course.  An electronic warning on the GPS when we get them, that would show them behind pace as soon as they are, should replace signs more effectively.

 

So, let's focus on what to do with groups that have been warned twice and have not sped up.  What should that 3rd visit from the marshal be?  Please bear in mind that with some of our golfers, they find out they should not be on our course, too late, and they just physically cannot play any faster.  They are attracted to us because we are a "gotta play" facility, #1 in the State.

4. Well, no experience with this but;

a. they should be driving with the flow of the golf course

b. they should not serve during the play of the hole, catch the players leaving the green at the next tee

c. catch as many as possible at the turn or where the predictable backup occurs

 

Groups that have been warned twice should be removed from the course. Maybe you could offer them a 9 hole coupon to be used

during "non busy" times?

 

Whatever the policy, it must be made clear to all players before they pay for their round.

post #243 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RH31 View Post
 

4. Well, no experience with this but;

a. they should be driving with the flow of the golf course

b. they should not serve during the play of the hole, catch the players leaving the green at the next tee

c. catch as many as possible at the turn or where the predictable backup occurs

 

Groups that have been warned twice should be removed from the course. Maybe you could offer them a 9 hole coupon to be used

during "non busy" times?

 

Whatever the policy, it must be made clear to all players before they pay for their round.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH31 View Post
 

4. Well, no experience with this but;

a. they should be driving with the flow of the golf course

b. they should not serve during the play of the hole, catch the players leaving the green at the next tee

c. catch as many as possible at the turn or where the predictable backup occurs

 

Groups that have been warned twice should be removed from the course. Maybe you could offer them a 9 hole coupon to be used

during "non busy" times?

 

Whatever the policy, it must be made clear to all players before they pay for their round.

a.  The beverage cart has always worked backwards, and I don't quite see what difference that makes.

 

Once the course is full, we also marshal backwards.  We see the gap and then see the group that caused the gap.  I will normally say something like, "How you guys doing?", get their answer, and then add, "You've got ____ holes open in front of you."  I will then check out the groups behind them to see how many, if any, are being held up, and what their attitudes are.  If there is a problem. I will go back to the slow group.

 

b.  ???  Not following what difference it makes where the "beverage cart" delay happens, although "beverage cart" delay is not a problem with us.  Golfers are more than welcome to buy as much as they want!!!!

 

c.  We have a halfway house after the ninth hole, since it does not go by the clubhouse, which is open on busy days.

 

We always make our policies clear before the start of the round, maybe even too much so, but I question how much sinks in.

post #244 of 289
Beverage carts and marshals always work backwards. That allows both to touch more groups in less time....
post #245 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

 

a.  The beverage cart has always worked backwards, and I don't quite see what difference that makes.

 

Once the course is full, we also marshal backwards.  We see the gap and then see the group that caused the gap.  I will normally say something like, "How you guys doing?", get their answer, and then add, "You've got ____ holes open in front of you."  I will then check out the groups behind them to see how many, if any, are being held up, and what their attitudes are.  If there is a problem. I will go back to the slow group.

 

b.  ???  Not following what difference it makes where the "beverage cart" delay happens, although "beverage cart" delay is not a problem with us.  Golfers are more than welcome to buy as much as they want!!!!

 

c.  We have a halfway house after the ninth hole, since it does not go by the clubhouse, which is open on busy days.

 

We always make our policies clear before the start of the round, maybe even too much so, but I question how much sinks in.

If the delay is after players have completed a hole, the groups that follow have the opportunity to play the hole.

 

Here's one scenario I've seen multiple times. Players are waiting to hit shot in fairway, bev cart comes by and they go stock up. They go back

and hit shots. We have to wait on the tee for all this to play out and then wait for bev cart to drive to tee where we were already waiting to hit.

 

Regardless of which way they travel, It just seems to me that the delay is less if they catch you after having cleared the green.

post #246 of 289
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Beverage carts and marshals always work backwards. That allows both to touch more groups in less time....


What about where the bev cart stops.  My take is that it stops where the golfers are, wherever that is.  It's out there to make money, and stopping and waiting for golfers at the green, or next, tee, or anywhere, doesn't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RH31 View Post
 

If the delay is after players have completed a hole, the groups that follow have the opportunity to play the hole.

 

Here's one scenario I've seen multiple times. Players are waiting to hit shot in fairway, bev cart comes by and they go stock up. They go back

and hit shots. We have to wait on the tee for all this to play out and then wait for bev cart to drive to tee where we were already waiting to hit.

 

Regardless of which way they travel, It just seems to me that the delay is less if they catch you after having cleared the green.


First, Bev cart delay is not a problem we are concerned about.  Matter of fact, I was one who helped put coolers on the carts four years ago, so we could have more bev carts delays.  :beer: Within reason, of course.

 

But, and JMHO, if you are in the fairway waiting to hit to the green, and the bev cart serves customers beside the green, if you are prudent you would have to wait.

 

If it serves customers on the next tee while you are hitting to the last green and putting out, you will have to wait on the next tee.

 

Bev cart delays are acceptable.  Stuff like driving around in the woods, hitting multiple shots, not playing ready golf, lining up putts like you're playing on the tour, etc. is not.

 

But, thanks.

 

Still, what should we do with slow players?

post #247 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 


What about where the bev cart stops.  My take is that it stops where the golfers are, wherever that is.  It's out there to make money, and stopping and waiting for golfers at the green, or next, tee, or anywhere, doesn't do that.


First, Bev cart delay is not a problem we are concerned about.  Matter of fact, I was one who helped put coolers on the carts four years ago, so we could have more bev carts delays.  :beer: Within reason, of course.

 

But, and JMHO, if you are in the fairway waiting to hit to the green, and the bev cart serves customers beside the green, if you are prudent you would have to wait.

 

If it serves customers on the next tee while you are hitting to the last green and putting out, you will have to wait on the next tee.

 

Bev cart delays are acceptable.  Stuff like driving around in the woods, hitting multiple shots, not playing ready golf, lining up putts like you're playing on the tour, etc. is not.

 

But, thanks.

 

Still, what should we do with slow players?

 

I absolutely agree.  If the bev cart only stopped at the tee boxes, you'd miss at least half the players on the course.  Can you imagine being in the fairway and watching the cart bypass you to stop at the tee box/green you just left?  Not gonna happen, nor should it.  That beverage cart is a significant revenue source that has to be maximized.  It also represents a large customer service piece that can drive repeat play.......or not.

 

The cart girl does need to be trained though.  She needs to have a sense of urgency, be conscious of speed of play, and understand what she can do to help.  Grab a group in the fairway, take their orders, get out of the way and deliver them to their carts while they're putting on the green as one example.  The good ones will understand that the quicker golfers get around the course, and the more groups that they're able to touch, the more $'s they'll earn, and that will provide them the incentive they need.....

post #248 of 289

Last year was horrendous playing in CT, absolutely bad with regards to slow play. I'm joining a club this year to avoid dealing with it as much as possible.

I play in NJ all the time and it wasn't an issue.

I pray this year improves, because this is the only thing that can probably make me quit golf.

post #249 of 289
Thread Starter 

More bev cart.

 

Most of us having been working together for some time now.  Years ago the bev carts had walkie talkies, on a different channel.  Couse maintenance had walkie talkies on their own channel.  If any of us had something to tell the others, we would switch channels and tell them.

 

Somewhere along the line the bev cart lost their radios.  Some of them call us on their cell phones and tell us about things like pace complaints or several groups on the same hole, or gaps.  They know what is supposed to look like out there.

 

But, that reminds me, I need to email the GM and tell him the bev carts need radios.

post #250 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 

More bev cart.

 

Most of us having been working together for some time now.  Years ago the bev carts had walkie talkies, on a different channel.  Couse maintenance had walkie talkies on their own channel.  If any of us had something to tell the others, we would switch channels and tell them.

 

Somewhere along the line the bev cart lost their radios.  Some of them call us on their cell phones and tell us about things like pace complaints or several groups on the same hole, or gaps.  They know what is supposed to look like out there.

 

But, that reminds me, I need to email the GM and tell him the bev carts need radios.

 

ABSOLUTELY!  They're another set of eyes out there. 

 

They can also "call in" and arrange for anything special that they need for resupply.  The less time they spend in the clubhouse reloading, the more time they're on the course making money.

post #251 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartboy View Post
 


First, Bev cart delay is not a problem we are concerned about.  Matter of fact, I was one who helped put coolers on the carts four years ago, so we could have more bev carts delays.  :beer: Within reason, of course.

 

 

Bev cart delays are acceptable.  Stuff like driving around in the woods, hitting multiple shots, not playing ready golf, lining up putts like you're playing on the tour, etc. is not.

 

 

So delays of certain types are acceptable, but other types are not? Why continue to ask about slow players if your policy is to encourage them to stop multiple times per round for drinks, no matter if groups behind them are waiting. It's clear that you really don't care about the speed of play.

post #252 of 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
 

So delays of certain types are acceptable, but other types are not? Why continue to ask about slow players if your policy is to encourage them to stop multiple times per round for drinks, no matter if groups behind them are waiting. It's clear that you really don't care about the speed of play.

 

As opposed to what, dumping the beverage cart?  Managed properly, the beverage cart shouldn't slow down play at all.  I can get around in an easy 3 hours with a 4-ball even grabbing a couple of cokes and peanuts from the cart a couple of times.  Or I can get stuck behind slow players and spend 5 interminable hours out there even though there's no service on the course....

 

.....truth be told, if the beverage cart is good, I think it can also cut down on the more significant delays associated with stopping for refreshment at the turn.

 

The cart girls need to be trained, but assuming they understand their responsibility to help maintain pace of play, I'm on @Cartboy's side on this one.  I'd also rather see the course generating revenue from the cart, than cramming even more players onto the course to offset revenue lost because the cart isn't contributing.

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