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Tour Caddies - Page 2

post #19 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

I'm not sure how putting a caddy's name on a trophy is relevant.

 

That said, yes, those are important skills. So is making a sound swing. So is making a good putt. So is performing under pressure. Sorry for the bad analogies, but I feel you're just drawing an arbitrary line and saying anything beyond it should be the sole responsibility of the player. Why shouldn't players carry their own bags, then? Or rake their own bunkers? Make their own yardage books or walk off their own yardages? I don't know how you decide that these things are okay for a player to have someone do for them, but not others. I have to make the shot or putt. Doesn't matter if someone points me in the right direction, I still have to make that shot. Isn't that the point of golf?

 



Of course it matters, because it's using their skill and not yours. They still have to hit the shot, of course that's true, but if you pick the wrong line or club then it doesn't make a difference how pure you strike it. Look,Tour golf isn't a team game, its as simple as that really.
post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

The Rules of Golf allow one to use a caddy.  In a sense, it is a team game from the standpoint of discussing conditions, potential shots, etc...  If the rulesmakers had wanted to limit the input from a caddy, they would have written a prohibition related to providing advice.

 

In his book, The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf, Richard Tufts not only agrees, but makes the additional point that a caddie is recognized as being associated with the player's side.  Except when he has a partner (as in a foursome or fourball), the Rules don't permit the player to have any other person associated with him during the round.

 

Proof that the caddie is associated with the player's side is further evidenced by the fact that in many cases, the Rules apply equally to the caddie as they do to the player himself.  In fact, Rule 6-1 specifically says that any breach of a rule by the caddie will result in the player incurring the applicable penalty.

 

The caddie is part of the team.....pure and simple.  How the player makes use of his caddie is up to him as the leader of that team.

post #21 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post
 

The Rules of Golf allow one to use a caddy.  In a sense, it is a team game from the standpoint of discussing conditions, potential shots, etc...  If the rulesmakers had wanted to limit the input from a caddy, they would have written a prohibition related to providing advice.

 

In his book, The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf, Richard Tufts not only agrees, but makes the additional point that a caddie is recognized as being associated with the player's side.  Except when he has a partner (as in a foursome or fourball), the Rules don't permit the player to have any other person associated with him during the round.

 

Proof that the caddie is associated with the player's side is further evidenced by the fact that in many cases, the Rules apply equally to the caddie as they do to the player himself.  In fact, Rule 6-1 specifically says that any breach of a rule by the caddie will result in the player incurring the applicable penalty.

 

The caddie is part of the team.....pure and simple.  How the player makes use of his caddie is up to him as the leader of that team.

Just last year there was an incident where one of the LGPA caddies "tested" the sand in the bunker resulting in a penalty to the player. Can't remember who or where though.

post #22 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

In his book, The Principles Behind the Rules of Golf, Richard Tufts not only agrees, but makes the additional point that a caddie is recognized as being associated with the player's side.  Except when he has a partner (as in a foursome or fourball), the Rules don't permit the player to have any other person associated with him during the round.

Proof that the caddie is associated with the player's side is further evidenced by the fact that in many cases, the Rules apply equally to the caddie as they do to the player himself.  In fact, Rule 6-1 specifically says that any breach of a rule by the caddie will result in the player incurring the applicable penalty.

The caddie is part of the team.....pure and simple.  How the player makes use of his caddie is up to him as the leader of that team.

I think I'm not going to win this argument a3_biggrin.gif

The rules are what they are, my opinion is that they should change that's all.
post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

Just last year there was an incident where one of the LGPA caddies "tested" the sand in the bunker resulting in a penalty to the player. Can't remember who or where though.

Stacy Lewis.

post #24 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

Just last year there was an incident where one of the LGPA caddies "tested" the sand in the bunker resulting in a penalty to the player. Can't remember who or where though.

Stacy Lewis.

The sore loser? :-P

post #25 of 45

I don't mind caddies. but if you argue against them helping my answer would be. no help from anyone or any outside agency. no maps of greens, no yardage books no using a range finder. maybe a 150 yard plate and your good judgement.

post #26 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wils5150 View Post

I don't mind caddies. but if you argue against them helping my answer would be. no help from anyone or any outside agency. no maps of greens, no yardage books no using a range finder. maybe a 150 yard plate and your good judgement.

I quite like that idea. Pure skill. Would sort the men out from the boys!

In fact when you think about it, this is the way it should be for those at the very top of the game but for us poor amateurs they would allow range finders etc.
post #27 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster 7 View Post

I quite like that idea. Pure skill. Would sort the men out from the boys!

In fact when you think about it, this is the way it should be for those at the very top of the game but for us poor amateurs they would allow range finders etc.

With all the money at play they'd still map courses out. It's not like they use range finders during rounds now.
post #28 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

With all the money at play they'd still map courses out. It's not like they use range finders during rounds now.

Yeah probably but it would be interesting, especially the last 9 on a Sunday when there's no caddie to make the decision for you when your head is in turmoil. I wonder how many major championships would've been different with no outside help?
post #29 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster 7 View Post

Yeah probably but it would be interesting, especially the last 9 on a Sunday when there's no caddie to make the measured decision for you. I wonder how many major championships would've been different with no outside help?

You realize that all those guys you watch on Sunday afternoon played at a VERY high level long before they ever had a caddie on tour......right? Most of them long before they ever saw a laser rangefinder too.

Golf is golf. A caddie can help....he can even hurt if his thoughts differ from your own. But the bottom line is that the player will always have to make a decision and execute the shot.
post #30 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

You realize that all those guys you watch on Sunday afternoon played at a VERY high level long before they ever had a caddie on tour......right? Most of them long before they ever saw a laser rangefinder too.

Golf is golf. A caddie can help....he can even hurt if his thoughts differ from your own. But the bottom line is that the player will always have to make a decision and execute the shot.

Yeah of course and I suppose this is my point. Take away the outside influence and you have the player on his own merits then there is no question. I know it'll never change but it's just something that has niggled me since Stevie Williams gave that infamous interview.
post #31 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster 7 View Post

Yeah of course and I suppose this is my point. Take away the outside influence and you have the player on his own merits then there is no question. I know it'll never change but it's just something that has niggled me since Stevie Williams gave that infamous interview.

Again though.....there is no "outside" influence. The caddie is, by rule and principle, part of the side. Would you refer to a football (yours or ours a1_smile.gif ) coach as an "outside influence", or are they an integral part of the competition? I say the latter.....

And yeah, Stevie Williams is an ass!
post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster 7 View Post


Yeah of course and I suppose this is my point. Take away the outside influence and you have the player on his own merits then there is no question. I know it'll never change but it's just something that has niggled me since Stevie Williams gave that infamous interview.

I'll grant you that Steve Williams seems like kind of a tool, but I still don't agree with your position on caddies. Again, I feel that you're just picking an arbitrary point and saying caddies can't help beyond it. If you want to take away outside influences and have players on their own merits, why stop at caddies reading greens? Let's get rid of swing coaches, personal trainers, and sports psychologists. While we're at it, let's make all the players grind their own wedges and configure their own equipment.

 

Golf may not be a team sport like baseball or football, but it most certainly is not a purely individual effort. Like @David in FL mentioned earlier, the rules of golf not only stipulate that caddies are allow, but they are meant to be part of the "team." Maybe the problem with golf isn't that they allow caddies to influence players so much, but that they don't (as you mentioned) put the caddy's name on the trophy with the player. Perhaps if they did, you would recognize their value.

post #33 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

I'll grant you that Steve Williams seems like kind of a tool, but I still don't agree with your position on caddies. Again, I feel that you're just picking an arbitrary point and saying caddies can't help beyond it. If you want to take away outside influences and have players on their own merits, why stop at caddies reading greens? Let's get rid of swing coaches, personal trainers, and sports psychologists. While we're at it, let's make all the players grind their own wedges and configure their own equipment.

Golf may not be a team sport like baseball or football, but it most certainly is not a purely individual effort. Like @David in FL
 mentioned earlier, the rules of golf not only stipulate that caddies are allow, but they are meant to be part of the "team." Maybe the problem with golf isn't that they allow caddies to influence players so much, but that they don't (as you mentioned) put the caddy's name on the trophy with the player. Perhaps if they did, you would recognize their value.

Bill, their value is not in doubt to me and probably completely the opposite. They are an integral part of the pro game to the player and although they are considered an employee by some players, to a lot they are a part of the team to the point where the player says 'we' when talking about he/she played ( I've heard Phil say this before). I think the grey area is that they are recognised as part of the team but not given official credit as such and yes, if their name went on the trophy too I would think it fair. The difference between them and say a swing coach is that once inside the ropes they can influence the decision making process on that day, so although the player has a large team these days including psychologists etc. ( the wife would probably need a mention too) they don't take part in the heat of the battle and give that piece of advice that makes the difference between winning and losing ( mostly on the last few holes on Sunday)

I still also think there's the culture in golf where the caddie is a bit of a second class citizen so this is probably why they don't get more credit and official recognition.
post #34 of 45

They get paid. Just like you and me. That's recognition.

Name on the trophy? Sorry, but no. Just as no individual team member names are put on any team trophy. In golf, I'd consider the "team" to be the player.


Edited by David in FL - 11/20/13 at 7:26am
post #35 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

They get paid. Just like you and me. That's recognition. Name on the trophy? Sorry, but no.

 



Poor old caddies eh! They get the blame when the players get it wrong and none of the credit when it all goes right. No wonder they tend to like a drink! :)
post #36 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster 7 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

They get paid. Just like you and me. That's recognition. Name on the trophy? Sorry, but no.

 



Poor old caddies eh! They get the blame when the players get it wrong and none of the credit when it all goes right. No wonder they tend to like a drink! :)

 

Sounds like my job!   :-D

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