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Course Architecture Program? Thoughts on mini course?

post #1 of 19
Thread Starter 

Some of you may have seen this thread..
http://thesandtrap.com/t/71146/strange-question-age-3-10-shot-length
 

I'm trying to look into the logistics of creating a shortened golf course for a specific age group. I was wondering how you'd go about sketching one up? Is there a software/program one could use? A helpful book? 

 

What do you like to see in a course? What characteristics would you like to see in a shortened course that your child could play? Is there a specific hole that you could see being great in a miniaturized form? I don't want to plagiarize a hole, I'm just looking for some ideas. 
 

Any info will help! 

post #2 of 19

I would only suggest minimizing the hazards ... you want it to be fun, so make it easy to start. :)

 

No water (except maybe for aesthetics) and not too many bunkers.  (I'd also avoid any bunkers near the fronts of the greens, since these kids are having a hard enough time getting it up in the air anyway.) :)

 

Good luck!

post #3 of 19

I look forward to see where this idea takes you. Keep us posted!

post #4 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I would only suggest minimizing the hazards ... you want it to be fun, so make it easy to start. :)

 

No water (except maybe for aesthetics) and not too many bunkers.  (I'd also avoid any bunkers near the fronts of the greens, since these kids are having a hard enough time getting it up in the air anyway.) :)

 

Good luck!

Great ideas, yeah bunkers around the green could make a kid very agitated. I would like to put bunkers way off the fairway on a couple holes but make them really small and easy to hit out of. 

 

I have a couple water ideas but they aren't going to be very big or in play at all. They will also not be dangerous for young kids to walk around. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

I look forward to see where this idea takes you. Keep us posted!

Trust me, I'll keep ya'll posted :D

I always have a ton of questions.

 

Course yardage and holes so far look like....

 

Hole #1 -  Par 4 110 to 140 yards, I'll try to make it one of if not the most beautiful holes since this will be the one that everyone see's first from the clubhouse.

 

Hole #2 -  Par 3 60 to 90 yards, I think it's important to put a short par 3 on the second hole to increase a young child's confidence if he/she had trouble with the beginning hole. 

 

Hole #3 - Par 4 110 to 140 yards, Still deciding whether I want to throw a Par 5 here or 4. 

 

Hole #4 - Par 5 150 to 200 yards, Important thing is to keep the par 5's relatively straight so everyone can get a nice drive in...and adults can treat as a par 3. 

 

Hole #5 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards, Once again, the child just played a Par 5, give him a short hole now. 

 

Hole #6 - Par 4 - 110 to 140 yards

 

Hole #7 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards

 

Hole #8 - Par 5, 150 to 200 yards

 

Hole #9 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yard...OR a Par 4

 

  

 

Why four Par 3's? Well I've been speaking with a couple members and they aren't sure a 9 hole course can hold a 6 year old or younger's concentration for that long. I believe that short Par 3's will not only help with this, BUT it will also probably help the pace of play. 

 

What would you think of that yardage and setup? 

post #5 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post
 

Trust me, I'll keep ya'll posted :D

I always have a ton of questions.

 

Course yardage and holes so far look like....

 

Hole #1 -  Par 4 110 to 140 yards, I'll try to make it one of if not the most beautiful holes since this will be the one that everyone see's first from the clubhouse.

 

Hole #2 -  Par 3 60 to 90 yards, I think it's important to put a short par 3 on the second hole to increase a young child's confidence if he/she had trouble with the beginning hole.

 

Hole #3 - Par 4 110 to 140 yards, Still deciding whether I want to throw a Par 5 here or 4.

 

Hole #4 - Par 5 150 to 200 yards, Important thing is to keep the par 5's relatively straight so everyone can get a nice drive in...and adults can treat as a par 3.

 

Hole #5 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards, Once again, the child just played a Par 5, give him a short hole now.

 

Hole #6 - Par 4 - 110 to 140 yards

 

Hole #7 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards

 

Hole #8 - Par 5, 150 to 200 yards

 

Hole #9 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yard...OR a Par 4

 

 

 

Why four Par 3's? Well I've been speaking with a couple members and they aren't sure a 9 hole course can hold a 6 year old or younger's concentration for that long. I believe that short Par 3's will not only help with this, BUT it will also probably help the pace of play.

 

What would you think of that yardage and setup?

What are you doing to make this specifically geared towards kids?  There is a pitch-n-putt near my house that I like to play for practice, and it's not much different than this.  Something like:

 

1 - Par 3 - 85 yards

2 - Par 3 - 95 yards

3 - Par 3 - 90 yards

4 - Par 3 - 75 yards

5 - Par 4 - 200 yards

6 - Par 3 - 65 yards

7 - Par 3 - 125 yards

8 - Par 3 - 80 yards

9 - Par 4 - 240 yards

 

It certainly gets more beginner and kid play than bigger courses, but the majority of players are still adults.

post #6 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post
 

Trust me, I'll keep ya'll posted :D

I always have a ton of questions.

 

Course yardage and holes so far look like....

 

Hole #1 -  Par 4 110 to 140 yards, I'll try to make it one of if not the most beautiful holes since this will be the one that everyone see's first from the clubhouse.

 

Hole #2 -  Par 3 60 to 90 yards, I think it's important to put a short par 3 on the second hole to increase a young child's confidence if he/she had trouble with the beginning hole. 

 

Hole #3 - Par 4 110 to 140 yards, Still deciding whether I want to throw a Par 5 here or 4. 

 

Hole #4 - Par 5 150 to 200 yards, Important thing is to keep the par 5's relatively straight so everyone can get a nice drive in...and adults can treat as a par 3. 

 

Hole #5 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards, Once again, the child just played a Par 5, give him a short hole now. 

 

Hole #6 - Par 4 - 110 to 140 yards

 

Hole #7 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yards

 

Hole #8 - Par 5, 150 to 200 yards

 

Hole #9 - Par 3, 60 to 90 yard...OR a Par 4

 

  

 

Why four Par 3's? Well I've been speaking with a couple members and they aren't sure a 9 hole course can hold a 6 year old or younger's concentration for that long. I believe that short Par 3's will not only help with this, BUT it will also probably help the pace of play. 

 

What would you think of that yardage and setup? 

 

This looks pretty challenging and fun for an adult as well at over 1100 yards.

 

Simple question, what if you put the 300 yard driving range right next to one of the par 5? A full driving range might make some of your money back more quickly, and give the place some legitimacy of being a good place for everyone to practice?

post #7 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

What are you doing to make this specifically geared towards kids?  There is a pitch-n-putt near my house that I like to play for practice, and it's not much different than this.  Something like:

 

1 - Par 3 - 85 yards

2 - Par 3 - 95 yards

3 - Par 3 - 90 yards

4 - Par 3 - 75 yards

5 - Par 4 - 200 yards

6 - Par 3 - 65 yards

7 - Par 3 - 125 yards

8 - Par 3 - 80 yards

9 - Par 4 - 240 yards

 

It certainly gets more beginner and kid play than bigger courses, but the majority of players are still adults.

EVERYTHING will be geared toward 8 and under. It's basically like the pitch and putt you are talking about but I'm trying to base it off a 5 to 7 year old's swing that can actually make contact. Are my distances too far? Like the 5th hole at your course would be considered a LONG Par 5 at my course. The bunkers/hazards will all be small and as easy as possible to get out of. The clubhouse will be completely filled with kid stuff, fun snacks, fun golf balls, every single size of club rental for 8 and under. I think a cool idea would be to have pictures of pros when they were younger on the walls, a DVD instructional for kids playing non-stop on the TV in there. I'd love to have an instructor on the first tee to give everyone a good quick instruction.   

 

Is there anything else on the course that I could put to give it a larger appeal to the younger ones?  

post #8 of 19
I like the idea.

However, a typical 8 year old doesn't have a lot of diposable income.

You might consider an adult area as well. Coffee shop for non-golfing parents.
post #9 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

This looks pretty challenging and fun for an adult as well at over 1100 yards.

 

Simple question, what if you put the 300 yard driving range right next to one of the par 5? A full driving range might make some of your money back more quickly, and give the place some legitimacy of being a good place for everyone to practice?

Yeah now that I think about it, maybe my distances are too far? I want this to be for the kids first and foremost. The adults can play but it should be cake for any adult or teenager that plays often. 

 

Driving range would be great, as long as it fits in with course, not sure if that's possible. I don't want a range to take away from the course in any way. I'd be afraid that someone would just send their 6 year old on the course and then they'd go to the range. That's not what I'm looking for, I'd rather have a parent not play at all (obviously i'd like them to play) and walk and teach their children the rules and fundamentals. 

post #10 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I like the idea.

However, a typical 8 year old doesn't have a lot of diposable income.

You might consider an adult area as well. Coffee shop for non-golfing parents.

I hear ya, but there's a reason why animated films do so well at the box office even if they are terrible. It's something a parent can do with their child. Also I can't remember the last time I got popcorn and soda at the movies, but when I took my nephew there? You KNOW we were getting popcorn and soda, haha. Kids will want to play that Sponge Bob Golf Ball for an extra dollar, parents might oblige. Grandparent bringing their grandkid to the course? Child might just leave with a new golf bag. 

 

All of this is complete hearsay at this point, I love the advice though. Keep it coming!

post #11 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post
 

EVERYTHING will be geared toward 8 and under. It's basically like the pitch and putt you are talking about but I'm trying to base it off a 5 to 7 year old's swing that can actually make contact. Are my distances too far? Like the 5th hole at your course would be considered a LONG Par 5 at my course. The bunkers/hazards will all be small and as easy as possible to get out of. The clubhouse will be completely filled with kid stuff, fun snacks, fun golf balls, every single size of club rental for 8 and under. I think a cool idea would be to have pictures of pros when they were younger on the walls, a DVD instructional for kids playing non-stop on the TV in there. I'd love to have an instructor on the first tee to give everyone a good quick instruction.

 

Is there anything else on the course that I could put to give it a larger appeal to the younger ones?

 

Just because I'm a numbers kind of business guy, I'd love to see a complete business plan that really gets into the nuts and bolts.......especially the targeted demographic piece and the forecast balance sheet, complete with initial assumptions.  That's honestly more interesting to me than the concept itself.

 

Yeah, I know I'm weird......

post #12 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Just because I'm a weird, numbers kind of business guy, I'd love to see a complete business plan that really gets into the nuts and bolts.......especially the targeted demographic piece.

This unfortunately is my weakest area and the one I'll need a ton of help with. I'm not a business guy in the least. I have ideas, I constantly have ideas running through my head with no idea of how execute some of them. When I was a teen I tried to build a cover that you can store in your vehicle trunk that if it was ever about to hail, you can quickly and easily put it on. I didn't know where to start. That's why I got into television, you film and you edit it :) 

 

Anyway, I'm just trying to bridge the gap between a putt putt course and a full sized golf course with the main demographic being 3 to 8 year olds. You can pretty much consider it a pitch and play but I want the kids to be using an iron, wedge, AND driver/fairwaywood. 

 

I'll post detailed logistics when I get them. Do you recommend any business books or courses?

post #13 of 19
My only suggestion would be to keep in mind that while your target "audience" may very well be 3-8 year olds, your demographic is their parents.
a2_wink.gif
post #14 of 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crim View Post
 

This unfortunately is my weakest area and the one I'll need a ton of help with. I'm not a business guy in the least. I have ideas, I constantly have ideas running through my head with no idea of how execute some of them. When I was a teen I tried to build a cover that you can store in your vehicle trunk that if it was ever about to hail, you can quickly and easily put it on. I didn't know where to start. That's why I got into television, you film and you edit it :)

 

Anyway, I'm just trying to bridge the gap between a putt putt course and a full sized golf course with the main demographic being 3 to 8 year olds. You can pretty much consider it a pitch and play but I want the kids to be using an iron, wedge, AND driver/fairwaywood.

 

I'll post detailed logistics when I get them. Do you recommend any business books or courses?

 

There are a ton of good books oriented towards starting a small business.......and early on I'd absolutely recommend picking up one specifically oriented towards writing a business plan.  I'd also recommend you invest in an inexpensive business plan software program.  I personally like Business Plan Pro (the basic version is fine) but there are a bunch of them......probably even some freeware if you look.  That will give you an idea of some of the info and assumptions that you'll need to develop in order to make your dream viable.......remember, all those fun little things have got to be paid for out of the revenues you're going to get out of the little tykes and their folks.

post #15 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post

My only suggestion would be to keep in mind that while your target "audience" may very well be 3-8 year olds, your demographic is their parents.
a2_wink.gif

I hear ya.

 

I suppose I can narrow down the demographic to this...

 

Any parent that wants to have a fun active day/afternoon with their child. Although golfing parents may appreciate the well built course more than non-golfing parents...I don't want it to seem like you have to be a golfer to try this out. It's supposed to be fun for everyone. I feel like many parents are scared to bring their kids to a course because of their pace of play and what others will think. At my course we'd expect the kids to miss the ball 3+ times before they connect, and I'll figure out ways to work around any slow pace of play. I definitely won't have any rules against it.   

post #16 of 19
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

.......remember, all those fun little things have got to be paid for out of the revenues you're going to get out of the little tykes and their folks.

I know, the first thing I thought was to get ahold of the local Coca-Cola factory nearby and ask if they want to sponsor a hole or the course. Heck I'd call the course JPC Coca Cola Golf Course if they helped with some finances. Or talk to a suburb nearby to Minneapolis and if they help with the land and fiances they could get a cut of the profit...or treat it as a loan.

 

Maybe neither of those options are fathomable, I may have just made them up haha. But there has to be other options out there. 

post #17 of 19

Neat concept I wish you luck and deep pockets!

post #18 of 19
Why not build an adult "executive" par 3 course with different par totals for different ages? It's the same thing, you're just allowing the family to play together. There's a par 3 in my area that caters to kids learning, and I plan on taking my kids out as soon as they're old enough.
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