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Lowest Score Wins - a first-of-its kind golf book for anyone who wants to lower their score - Page 32

post #559 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

 

Everyone says the book is based on a lot of statistical analysis of different golfers, etc.  If the shooting lower scores claim had any merit, you would think the authors could tell you approximately how much they would expect an average (or 5 handicap, etc) golfer to improve by following the advice in the book.

 

To be frank your post is ridiculous. How can they tell you how much you'll improve when they don't know how much you already know and how well you'll implement the information? You might be a 5 handicap that already does 50% of what the book recommends or you might not do any of it. They don't know exactly what your capacity for improvement is but there is a very, very good chance it will help your game.

 

Here's one thing I can guarantee you, and I don't make a dime off the book, it will offer you the best information of any golf book you have ever read. I can guarantee this because there is no other golf book out there like it, not even close.

post #560 of 625
@MEfree I understand where you are coming from.. In fact there are many other programs that basically say try us and if you are not satisfied then we will refund your money guaranteed.. In all practicality I don't think that many people even end up taking those people up on that offer because it is usually a hassle to do it..

I think others are also correct in their replies that how would the authors ever know that you followed their advice correctly? Or that you are mentally or physically capable of following through with what they mention correctly?

Finally, I don't know about everyone else but I actually plan on measuring how many strokes I improved by following the advise in the book.. It will be difficult to isolate some improvement due to the high variability if things that could go wrong in my swing and or strategy, but I plan on doing my best to make the experiment fair.. I will example write down somewhere the exact advice that I implemented and such.. This part shouldn't be hard, also, I will play a course 3 times before reading the book and then play it 3 times after reading and then recording the results.. Finally, it will be much easier tracking improvement over time as each individual knows what they are doing to improve, so tracking it will be easier over time..

I suggest you buy the book and make it a challenge to prove that the advice that you didn't previously know didn't help you at all.. Make a thread about it, and take us through what you learned and what you did.. Actually the sceptic a usually make the best cases for or against anything because they are not vested in the results! For example my review wouldn't carry as much weight as yours as I was a contributor pre sales and thus I would be viewed as a biased reviewer, while you are not so reality is that you are the target audience and not me!

Good luck and long term I think you will be happy with what you learned from the book!
post #561 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I agree that many aspects of life can't be guaranteed, but the lowest score website does say "The price includes shipping and guarantees lower scores immediately."  Are you saying this is just BS on the part of LSW?

 

The reviews of the book have been very positive, but I don't see a lot of people saying they immediately shot lower scores, so I am not sure why LSW guarantees this as part of the purchase price unless they are willing to offer a money back guarantee if you don't shoot lower scores.

 

Everyone says the book is based on a lot of statistical analysis of different golfers, etc.  If the shooting lower scores claim had any merit, you would think the authors could tell you approximately how much they would expect an average (or 5 handicap, etc) golfer to improve by following the advice in the book.

 

I'm not saying anything is BS. You said that. ;-)

 

In my case, I haven't made the time to do many of the homework assignments in the last part of the book, however, using some of the thought processes in the beginning of the books, I shaved a stroke or two off of holes I've played. So in my case, the guarantee has been met. Look. It's a good book. Buy it or don't buy it. That's up to you. I and many others vouch for it, and I've yet to hear anyone who has read it say it wasn't worth it. It's not like we're talking about the price of a new driver here.

post #562 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven93 View Post

Awesome, thanks guys. I will probably buy it pretty soon.

@Unforgiven93,

 

At your level, I think it will help fine tune your game and give you a little different perspective.  If you read it, it would be helpful if you let us know how you liked it and what you got out of it.

post #563 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

I haven't read the complete book yet. I'm still stuck with the swing sections, because these things need to be fixed before I proceed. When I am ready, I will glean any knowledge from the more advanced sections. I'm an engineer who likes to do things in a very systematic manner. I skimmed through the book, and the subject matter appears to be in an order that makes sense to me. I really think I can learn to play better golf from the material in this book and a lot of directed practice based upon the knowledge of the authors.

 

They're not really in an order, @Lihu. I mean, sections 1 and 2 deal with the improvement of your game (though, for example, the bit about trouble shots is something you can and should implement now, and so are some of the basic things like how to hit your driver to gain distance, etc.).

 

But the Building Your GamePlan section is ALL ABOUT using the game you have "now." Whenever "now" happens to be, you should be building your GamePlan and putting that into use, NOW. Read that section. It's not "out of order," but you can read it "out of order" because it applies to the present, whenever the present happens to be.

 

P.S. The positive press continues to roll in:

 

 

Quote:

Just finished @LowScoreWins It's a must read for coaches and players. Very practical information that needs to be read. Well done guys.

— John Graham (

@JohnGrahamGolf) July 19, 2014

 

post #564 of 625

@MEfree 

 

I don't think you should buy the book. I think you should write your own book. You can even have a section on which rules you prefer. 

post #565 of 625

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post


Finally, I don't know about everyone else but I actually plan on measuring how many strokes I improved by following the advise in the book.. It will be difficult to isolate some improvement due to the high variability if things that could go wrong in my swing and or strategy, but I plan on doing my best to make the experiment fair.. I will example write down somewhere the exact advice that I implemented and such.. This part shouldn't be hard, also, I will play a course 3 times before reading the book and then play it 3 times after reading and then recording the results.. Finally, it will be much easier tracking improvement over time as each individual knows what they are doing to improve, so tracking it will be easier over time..

 

I plan to buy the book and compare my scores also.  Personally, I would like to see a thread like http://thesandtrap.com/t/61875/tst-2012-forward-tees-experiment-results-thread

 

Many golfers track their scores anyways, so I think it wouldn't take much extra work to write down your previous 3, 5, 10 or 20 scores (along with course rating/slope) before reading the book and then your scores after reading the book.  (The number of prior and post scores should probably be standardized to avoid cherry picking.  Ideally, participants would post their pre scores at the time they buy the book with everyone following up and posting their after scores later.) 

 

I could start the thread myself, but imagine that there would be more participants if the OP of the Forward Tees Experiment (and author of LSW) would start the thread and encourage purchasers of the book to participate.  If there was enough participants, it seems it would give the authors of LSW some good data as to how much their books helps golfers improve.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac View Post
 

 

To be frank your post is ridiculous. How can they tell you how much you'll improve when they don't know how much you already know and how well you'll implement the information? You might be a 5 handicap that already does 50% of what the book recommends or you might not do any of it. They don't know exactly what your capacity for improvement is but there is a very, very good chance it will help your game.

 

 

I didn't ask how much I would improve, I asked how much Erik would expect the scores of the AVERAGE 5 handicap to improve.  The authors of the book might not know anything about me, but don't you think they should know something about average golfers of various skill levels?  Had the authors of LSW offered 100 free copies of the book to a variety of golfers with the stipulation that they must play and provide scores of 10 legit rounds before reading and 10 legit rounds after reading, they would have some idea of how much the average golfer improves by reading the book.  I am not saying that every author of improvement books must do this, but it would seem like it would help add credibility to their "guarantee" in light of the fact that it is not a money back guarantee as you see with many other products.  

 

I have not read the book, but from what I understand, the authors rely on real world data to come up/support with their theories and strategies.  Why not gather some real world data to see if golfers actually improve by reading the book? 

post #566 of 625
@MEfree

You appear to have a rather meticulous and quite frankly ridiculous outlook on such a simple idea here. It's a book on golf. It's a great book. You read it or not and go on with your life. Are you that guy that when reading that your toothpaste is "new and improved formula" you actually call the company saying you didn't notice any improvement?

Are you that guy that roams around the airport collecting luggage carts for your $0.50?

You're actually expecting to know the average strokes to drop from reading this book? I'm sorry, you may have some issues that need professional attention. And I don't mean golf issues.
post #567 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I plan to buy the book and compare my scores also.  Personally, I would like to see a thread like http://thesandtrap.com/t/61875/tst-2012-forward-tees-experiment-results-thread Many golfers track their scores anyways, so I think it wouldn't take much extra work to write down your previous 3, 5, 10 or 20 scores (along with course rating/slope) before reading the book and then your scores after reading the book. (The number of prior and post scores should probably be standardized to avoid cherry picking.  Ideally, participants would post their pre scores at the time they buy the book with everyone following up and posting their after scores later.) 

 

That's an incredibly small sample size and would not be able to account for things like course conditions, conditions of play (tournament, casual round, etc.), changes to the player's swing, course type and setup, new equipment, players not understanding everything or applying it properly, etc.

 

For example, suppose you can save 0.1 strokes every time a certain situation comes up, but that situation comes up once every 25 holes. You'd have to play 250 holes (14 rounds) to save one stroke, and that's only if you didn't somehow miraculously hole out for eagle doing the "stupid" play or lip out two of your birdie or par putts doing the "smart" play or something. Again, the sample sizes are far too small.

 

And golfers change. You can't even reliably do this over the course of a season, because the golfer will change between seasons. That's not "marketing BS" or anything, it's just the simple statement of how flat out impossible what you want to see done is to accomplish.

 

But to the issue of a "guarantee" I'll simply point to the #DeadCenter chapter as an example (I guess you'll have to buy the book to get the nitty gritty on that). If golfers did nothing but read the #DeadCenter chapter and apply it correctly, their scores are all but guaranteed to improve if the rest of their game stays exactly the same. The numbers are right there, in proof, and we tested enough golfers that those numbers are statistically significant.

 

And I said "all but guaranteed" because there's always the one or two people who are outliers. But they can't be outliers in every way that golfers can save strokes throughout the book, so, again, we can arrive at and say "guaranteed" with confidence.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I could start the thread myself, but imagine that there would be more participants if the OP of the Forward Tees Experiment (and author of LSW) would start the thread and encourage purchasers of the book to participate.

 

We have no interest in starting the thread. It would not produce statistically valid results, even if the results showed positive things for ourselves and Lowest Score Wins. Since I already mentioned the #DeadCenter chapter, I'll again point out the results there were enough to be statistically significant. A thread where people talk about their last 10 + 10 rounds is not. In #DeadCenter we could control more variables (not all, of course - the wind might have blown for someone more on some shots than others, or they might have had worse or better lies, or whatever - but again, that's part of the point of having large enough numbers to be statistically significant), which is nearly impossible in a few rounds, even 20, even with enough golfers, as golfers themselves change too much over time that you can't come close to "isolating" it to LSW's cause/effect.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I didn't ask how much I would improve, I asked how much Erik would expect the scores of the AVERAGE 5 handicap to improve.

 

And I answered the question, albeit in a short and glib way, based on much of what I've said here in this post and more. The average 5 handicap will save a million strokes given enough rounds played.

 

If you could somehow "define" in detail the average five handicap (and note: I'm not at all asking you to attempt to do so; this is a rhetorical paragraph), we might be getting somewhere, but as you cannot (nor, again, am I asking you to), that leaves us where we are now.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

The authors of the book might not know anything about me, but don't you think they should know something about average golfers of various skill levels?  Had the authors of LSW offered 100 free copies of the book to a variety of golfers with the stipulation that they must play and provide scores of 10 legit rounds before reading and 10 legit rounds after reading, they would have some idea of how much the average golfer improves by reading the book. I am not saying that every author of improvement books must do this, but it would seem like it would help add credibility to their "guarantee" in light of the fact that it is not a money back guarantee as you see with many other products.

 

How about this: buy 100 books (a head pro has already done so because, having read the book and liked it so much, he decided it's something his best 100 members need to read, so he's gifting a copy to each of them), distribute them to carefully chosen candidates, and share your results with us.

 

It's not a "money-back" guarantee because you'd have no way of proving to us that you properly applied what the book says. Good luck getting your money back from the other "money back guarantees" out there too.

 

And I've already told you how properly applying the ideas contained in just ONE chapter will shave strokes from your score. So, again, we're still pretty comfortable saying "guaranteed."

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I have not read the book, but from what I understand, the authors rely on real world data to come up/support with their theories and strategies.  Why not gather some real world data to see if golfers actually improve by reading the book? 

 

Because we understand the difference between statistically significant data and statistically insignificant data, and because we're confident in the book we've produced. Several people have already called it "the best golf book ever written." Now, we don't expect everyone to say that, but… that's pretty high praise.

 

Now, then, this thread should be dying down because the book is available. It's purpose and the topic was primarily for discussion of the book during the pre-order phase. It's lingered for awhile now, but the discussion should slowly move to the Reading Room thread ("Lowest Score Wins" by Barzeski and Wedzik), which is intended for the discussion of the book by people have bought it and read it, so that they can speak from a place of understanding.
post #568 of 625

@MEfree... Dude. it's a book. A darn good one IMO. You aren't buying a car. :doh:

post #569 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

And I answered the question, albeit in a short and glib way, based on much of what I've said here in this post and more. The average 5 handicap will save a million strokes given enough rounds played.

 

I didn't realize you were even half serious about the average 5 handicap saving 1,000,000 strokes but the above statement sure doesn't give me much confidence in your math skills.

 

Let's assume the average 5 handicap plays 300 rounds per year for 50 years after reading LSW.  That is 15,000 rounds of golf (much more than most people ever play in their lift).  He would have to save over 66 strokes per round to save a million strokes.

 

You are right about statistically insignificant data not meaning much (and right about there being many different variables that can affect someones score), but if you really think the average 5 handicap has any chance of saving 1 million strokes by reading your book, I doubt you know how to calculate statistical significance.

post #570 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I didn't realize you were even half serious about the average 5 handicap saving 1,000,000 strokes but the above statement sure doesn't give me much confidence in your math skills.

 

Let's assume the average 5 handicap plays 300 rounds per year for 50 years after reading LSW.  That is 15,000 rounds of golf (much more than most people ever play in their lift).  He would have to save over 66 strokes per round to save a million strokes.

 

I wasn't half serious. I wasn't serious at all. I'll make you a deal. I'll "work on" my math skills if you work on your sarcasm detection skills or something…

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

You are right about statistically insignificant data not meaning much (and right about there being many different variables that can affect someones score), but if you really think the average 5 handicap has any chance of saving 1 million strokes by reading your book, I doubt you know how to calculate statistical significance.

 

:doh: Tell you what: don't buy the book.

 

I'll note too that you ignored the meat of the post to (attempt to) pick at that, though…

post #571 of 625
Holy mother of God you are a ****ing douchebag.-Jeezus H. Cripes I dont know what crawled up your behind but why you feel like behaving this way is beyond me.

Do you honestly think he was serious about the million strokes?-Are the tens of people telling you 'best gofl book I ever read' and whatnot not enough for you that you have to act like this?-Over ****ing $30?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

I didn't realize you were even half serious about the average 5 handicap saving 1,000,000 strokes but the above statement sure doesn't give me much confidence in your math skills.

Let's assume the average 5 handicap plays 300 rounds per year for 50 years after reading LSW.  That is 15,000 rounds of golf (much more than most people ever play in their lift).  He would have to save over 66 strokes per round to save a million strokes.

You are right about statistically insignificant data not meaning much (and right about there being many different variables that can affect someones score), but if you really think the average 5 handicap has any chance of saving 1 million strokes by reading your book, I doubt you know how to calculate statistical significance.
If I were @IACAS I would refuse to sell you a copy.
post #572 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post
 

I didn't realize you were even half serious about the average 5 handicap saving 1,000,000 strokes but the above statement sure doesn't give me much confidence in your math skills.

 

Let's assume the average 5 handicap plays 300 rounds per year for 50 years after reading LSW.  That is 15,000 rounds of golf (much more than most people ever play in their lift).  He would have to save over 66 strokes per round to save a million strokes.

 

You are right about statistically insignificant data not meaning much (and right about there being many different variables that can affect someones score), but if you really think the average 5 handicap has any chance of saving 1 million strokes by reading your book, I doubt you know how to calculate statistical significance.

Here's your proof:

Handicap before reading LSW = 2.2

Handicap in the first revision after reading LSW = 1.7

post #573 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEfree View Post

I didn't realize you were even half serious about the average 5 handicap saving 1,000,000 strokes but the above statement sure doesn't give me much confidence in your math skills.

Let's assume the average 5 handicap plays 300 rounds per year for 50 years after reading LSW.  That is 15,000 rounds of golf (much more than most people ever play in their lift).  He would have to save over 66 strokes per round to save a million strokes.

\o/

He may as well has said "an infinite amount of strokes" because he added the qualifier "over enough rounds."

Good grief.
post #574 of 625
I don't think that it is any secret I have been struggling lately. I cannot stop hitting smother hooks off the tee with a driver, a 3 wood, and sometimes even my hybrid. A coworker that played 18 with me today said I look worse than a 20 handicap off the tee. Thanks buddy. I really appreciate it. Even though I pretty much hooked the ball on every tee of a par 4 and par 5, I still shot a decent 85 considering what I was dealing with by using concepts from this book. Only a stroke or two worse than my single digit buddy, who was hitting it down the middle all day. It is a very tough course as well. I also shot a 39 Friday morning while dealing with the hooks using the concepts from the book.

A couple weeks ago I shot an 85 at one of the toughest courses in America(the straits) in the pouring rain my first time playing it. I was not dealing with the hooks as badly that day, but I still used a bunch of the information I have learned from the book to navigate the course. Without what I have learned from LSW my scores would be a complete disaster right now. Even though I feel my game is in shambles, it is not. I am losing a bunch of strokes dealing with the hooks, but am making some of that back through what I have learned from LSW. I would otherwise be about a 10 hc right now. The book is great and many thanks to Erik and Dave for writing it.
post #575 of 625

Just ordered my copy can't wait to work it into my game for my next season this fall

post #576 of 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel View Post
 

Here's your proof:

Handicap before reading LSW = 2.2

Handicap in the first revision after reading LSW = 1.7

Hmmm ... Got my book exactly 4 weeks ago.

 

Handicap when it arrived:     7.4

Handicap after 7/1 revision:  6.8

After 7/15 revision:              6.4

After 8/1 revision:                6.3 (or perhaps even better if I can squeeze in another round this month)

 

:beer:

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