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How do you get out of the sand? - Page 2

post #19 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

I try to hit an inch or so behind it - depends on the distance of the shot.     It just seems like practically a guaranteed blade shot if the sand is really packed hard & I try to open the clubface to use the bounce ... club just bounces off the sand into the ball - I'm talking almost every time !!   I'm just so sick of losing strokes by blading bunker shots when I lay the club open like you see the guys on TV doing it - I've had much better luck chopping into the sand to get the ball out of hard packed sand bunkers.   

 

Would you suggest I play these packed bunker shots like a tight fairway lie & not a typical "TV" soft sand shot ... meaning using the bounce without trying to power it into the hard sand (as a result of the last thread on this subject, I've been practicing doing this for chipping & shorter pitch shots & I like the using the bounce technique alot) ?

 

If you're actually hitting an inch behind the ball and not four inches like many people think you should, then you must have concrete for bunkers. I love firm bunkers because you can use all the bounce you need and you're guaranteed not to dig too deep. You can take a slower, shorter swing and still get the ball out because you take so little sand.

 

If you're actually hitting an inch behind the ball and it's still bouncing into the ball, then I'd use more leading edge and a slightly steeper AoA (though if you get too much AoA you'll go right back to bouncing again). I've never encountered sand THAT firm, but I'll take your word for it.

post #20 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by inthehole View Post
 

 

I try to hit an inch or so behind it - depends on the distance of the shot.     It just seems like practically a guaranteed blade shot if the sand is really packed hard & I try to open the clubface to use the bounce ... club just bounces off the sand into the ball - I'm talking almost every time !!   I'm just so sick of losing strokes by blading bunker shots when I lay the club open like you see the guys on TV doing it - I've had much better luck chopping into the sand to get the ball out of hard packed sand bunkers.   

 

Would you suggest I play these packed bunker shots like a tight fairway lie & not a typical "TV" soft sand shot ... meaning using the bounce without trying to power it into the hard sand (as a result of the last thread on this subject, I've been practicing doing this for chipping & shorter pitch shots & I like the using the bounce technique alot) ?

On hardpacked or non-existent sand, I tend to keep a square club face, and not take as much swing -- the sand is not sucking as much energy from your swing, so no need for as long a swing.

post #21 of 48

^ thanks guys ... I think when I would try and use bounce by opening the club face on hard sand - I was overswinging - and found out no matter how hard you swing on hard packed bunkers, you're gonna bounce & blade it into the next county with a wide open club face.      I like Erik & Mr. D's idea of setting up like a tight lie shot & using a normal amount of bounce (not overdoing it like the guys on TV by opening it flat) and NOT overswinging.    Makes sense & I can't wait to try it next year !

post #22 of 48
It's easy!
Well sort of.
What has helped me a huge amount is sixty degree wedge, normal stance, normal club face and picture hitting a cup full of sand out onto the green.
Way more consistent now 9 out of 10 outs.
Playing the club on its normal lie is the key.
Opening the face of a sixty degree wedge is unnecessary and just leads to a lot of miss hit shots.
Just my two cents worth.
Steve
post #23 of 48

I don't know what the differences are between what Stan Utley and Erik teach when it comes to bunker shots but Utley's method was a real game changer for me, much like Erik's float-loady pitching technique was. I would recommend Utley's method to anyone who is having difficulty with the old open stance, open face, compensated aim technique. It's very odd when you first learn it but with a little practice the results are very solid. I used to dread bunkers, now if I'm going to miss the green I'm thinking, "get in the ****ing bunker!"

post #24 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer 4 View Post

Never been in a 9' deep bunker, so ya got me there..

You need to visit Royal Melbourne!! I have never seen so many deep bunkers - some would be well over 10 feet. Kingston Heath (also in Melbourne) not far behind.
post #25 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnno View Post


You need to visit Royal Melbourne!! I have never seen so many deep bunkers - some would be well over 10 feet. Kingston Heath (also in Melbourne) not far behind.

My league course, Merrimack Valley Golf Club, has two holes with bunkers well below the elevated greens.  Your feet are about 10 to 15 feet below the green depending on the lie.

post #26 of 48
Not to brag but I think I'm one of the better bunker players for my skill level. It's Definitely the strongest point of my game. I think partly because I belong to a club designed in the 20's by willie Watson and George Thomas so it has similar bunker style to Riviera. cc Very deep bunkers surrounding small greens. So pretty much every time you miss a green you get some bunker practice.

I play 90% of my sand shots with a 60 degree wedge that gives me comfortably about a range out to 20-25 ft. If I have to hit a longer shot than that then I'll go to a sW or 52 depending on the distance and height of the lip.

But my biggest key and it's very simple is the staple of the three best bunker players of all time all your weight on the left side at impact and I mean all of it. Trevino , Player And Seve all do this ( by the way one of my sons name is severiano). Seve although sometimes starts with weight centered and as he takes the club back he transfers his weight to his left foot on the backswing. That's what gives him that interesting look. I worked a lot on the Seve short game techniques with Mac O'grady and it gave me the ability to hit really high soft shots.

Trevino and Player and Seve in the bunkers actually just start with all there weight on there left side and they keep it there. Trevino credits player for his bunker technique. I believe this technique is the easiest and is what I now employ.

This technique although it seems simple gives you too really great benefits.
1. Steeper angle of attack. Trackman has enabled us clearly to see the measured spin on a shot and has made my understanding of increasing that spin via there spin loft measurement clearer.

To get more spin on any shot we need to either one increase angle of attack while maintaing the same loft of increase loft while keeping the same of angle of attack. Or diverge both at the same time increasing angle of attack while also increasing loft.

On a normal full shot this is tough because when you hit more down on a ball, say placing it farther back in your stance you also decrease the loft the same amount so there is no increased divergence between the AOfA and the loft you'l get the same spin the ball will just fly lower. And vice versa with the ball farther up in the stance. Your AOfA will be shallower but your adding loft so the spin will be relatively the same the shot will just go higher.

In a bunker though and a lot of short game shots you have the opportunity easily to increase angle of attack by playing the ball more back of low point and increasing the loft by opening the face wide open.

Trevino Seve And player, play the ball further back than most and get all there weight on there left side throughout the shot this gives them a really steep angle of attack. Then they just open the face accordingly and wahla a high spinny sand shot. The weight left the whole time actually gives you greater accuracy as well as it's easier to hit the sand in the exact same spot when your cog doesn't move.

Kinda long winded post but summary is all your weight on left side ball back like middle of stance and open blade up a lot. Then go thump that sand and get a feel for your aim and distance with your length of swing.

Here's a great Seve video at the end there is some slo no bunker shots http://youtu.be/uIXjPMYjLPk
post #27 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

This technique although it seems simple gives you too really great benefits.
1. Steeper angle of attack. Trackman has enabled us clearly to see the measured spin on a shot and has made my understanding of increasing that spin via there spin loft measurement clearer.

To get more spin on any shot we need to either one increase angle of attack while maintaing the same loft of increase loft while keeping the same of angle of attack. Or diverge both at the same time increasing angle of attack while also increasing loft.

 

You're wrong about the spin numbers. First of all, the clubface doesn't contact the ball in the sand, so the same old physics don't apply. Additionally, you can generate more spin with a shallow AoA and by taking less sand - a steep AoA will put more sand between the cluface and the ball and reduce spin.

 

And if you're talking about spin loft on shots that don't involve stuff in the way (whether it's grass or sand), 45° is the magic number. Go above that and you'll start to LOSE spin, not increase it.

post #28 of 48
I currently disagree with you, but if I'm wrong please enlighten me as I sure like to learn and that's what makes forum's great.

I'm not an expert and you may no better than me for sure. I'm basing this off the style of play of some great bunker players. And how employing these techniques my bunker game has excelled. I'm also basing it off the understanding of spin loft I've gotten from wiring on a trackman in lessons. But if I'm wrong please help me as I don't wanna spout out incorrect information.

You say the same old physic's don't apply

Is there some new ones I haven't heard of.
post #29 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

You say the same old physic's don't apply

Is there some new ones I haven't heard of.

 

I was fairly clear in my post, I feel, in pointing out the things I feel you have wrong.

 

The same old physics don't apply (Trackman's physics) because - as I pointed out - sand is in between the ball/clubface. And I pointed out the 45° deal with regards to maximum spin - 60° of spin loft will often produce LESS spin than 45° spin loft.

post #30 of 48
So is there bar tidied data on this? I haven't tested it myself. So by your statement are you saying a shot with a 9 iron of 45 degrees with a 0 AOfA would spin more than the same shot with a 60 degree wedge?
And does this only apply to full shots or is it different for shots hit with less than full speed like a bunker shot
post #31 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

So is there bar tidied data on this? I haven't tested it myself. So by your statement are you saying a shot with a 9 iron of 45 degrees with a 0 AOfA would spin more than the same shot with a 60 degree wedge?

 

It's verified by Trackman. I proposed it quite awhile ago based on some conversations I had with people and measurements I'd seen, and then it was verified in a Trackman article which showed a graph almost exactly like the one I expected we'd see.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

And does this only apply to full shots or is it different for shots hit with less than full speed like a bunker shot

 

It applies to just about all shots hit with grooved clubs and clean contact.

 

I've already answered your questions regarding sand. The primary determinant of spin in a bunker shot is how close you hit to the golf ball and how much sand gets between the clubface and the ball.

post #32 of 48
Ok, well great I did remember seeing something about a 56 actually spinning more than a 60.

I will say I used to play the ball more forwRd and trying to hit the pelz scoot and spin style shot. And I was mediocre at best.

Once I went to the ball farther back weight on left side my bunker game improved immensely.

Just an option to try out
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

Not to brag but I think I'm one of the better bunker players for my skill level. It's Definitely the strongest point of my game. I think partly because I belong to a club designed in the 20's by willie Watson and George Thomas so it has similar bunker style to Riviera. cc Very deep bunkers surrounding small greens. So pretty much every time you miss a green you get some bunker practice.

I play 90% of my sand shots with a 60 degree wedge that gives me comfortably about a range out to 20-25 ft. If I have to hit a longer shot than that then I'll go to a sW or 52 depending on the distance and height of the lip.

But my biggest key and it's very simple is the staple of the three best bunker players of all time all your weight on the left side at impact and I mean all of it. Trevino , Player And Seve all do this ( by the way one of my sons name is severiano). Seve although sometimes starts with weight centered and as he takes the club back he transfers his weight to his left foot on the backswing. That's what gives him that interesting look. I worked a lot on the Seve short game techniques with Mac O'grady and it gave me the ability to hit really high soft shots.

Trevino and Player and Seve in the bunkers actually just start with all there weight on there left side and they keep it there. Trevino credits player for his bunker technique. I believe this technique is the easiest and is what I now employ.

This technique although it seems simple gives you too really great benefits.
1. Steeper angle of attack. Trackman has enabled us clearly to see the measured spin on a shot and has made my understanding of increasing that spin via there spin loft measurement clearer.

To get more spin on any shot we need to either one increase angle of attack while maintaing the same loft of increase loft while keeping the same of angle of attack. Or diverge both at the same time increasing angle of attack while also increasing loft.

On a normal full shot this is tough because when you hit more down on a ball, say placing it farther back in your stance you also decrease the loft the same amount so there is no increased divergence between the AOfA and the loft you'l get the same spin the ball will just fly lower. And vice versa with the ball farther up in the stance. Your AOfA will be shallower but your adding loft so the spin will be relatively the same the shot will just go higher.

In a bunker though and a lot of short game shots you have the opportunity easily to increase angle of attack by playing the ball more back of low point and increasing the loft by opening the face wide open.

Trevino Seve And player, play the ball further back than most and get all there weight on there left side throughout the shot this gives them a really steep angle of attack. Then they just open the face accordingly and wahla a high spinny sand shot. The weight left the whole time actually gives you greater accuracy as well as it's easier to hit the sand in the exact same spot when your cog doesn't move.

Kinda long winded post but summary is all your weight on left side ball back like middle of stance and open blade up a lot. Then go thump that sand and get a feel for your aim and distance with your length of swing.

Here's a great Seve video at the end there is some slo no bunker shots http://youtu.be/uIXjPMYjLPk

 

Weight left doesn't mean the AoA is going to be steep.  Great bunker players tend to have more shallow AoA's, think of Seve, Player, Els and Couples.  Hands are low and the club is at head height in the followthrough, that's not steep.  They didn't "stick" the club in the bunker.  I would be very surprised if Mac told you to play the ball back out of the bunker.  Only time he gets steep with it is when it's buried and he sets up with negative axis tilt.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

I currently disagree with you, but if I'm wrong please enlighten me as I sure like to learn and that's what makes forum's great.

I'm not an expert and you may no better than me for sure. I'm basing this off the style of play of some great bunker players. And how employing these techniques my bunker game has excelled. I'm also basing it off the understanding of spin loft I've gotten from wiring on a trackman in lessons. But if I'm wrong please help me as I don't wanna spout out incorrect information.

 

For future reference, when @iacas posts, start taking notes.  He's one of the smartest guys in golf, he understands the science stuff very well.

post #34 of 48
Yes getting weight left won't automically give you a steeper angle of attack. But if ball position stays the same getting your weight over your left leg will definitely move low point ahead of the ball and will make your angle of attack steeper.

Mac plays the ball forward but has a lot of pavement to the left so is definitely got a steep angle of attack into the sand. He does have a very flat plane in the bunkers as he gets his hands very low at address.

And I'll definitely pay attention to the moderator as you say seems like a smart guy.
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Playerhater View Post

Yes getting weight left won't automically give you a steeper angle of attack. But if ball position stays the same getting your weight over your left leg will definitely move low point ahead of the ball and will make your angle of attack steeper.

Mac plays the ball forward but has a lot of pavement to the left so is definitely got a steep angle of attack into the sand. He does have a very flat plane in the bunkers as he gets his hands very low at address.

 

Yes the handle is going left but he's releasing all his right wrist bend early, also why he wants the left elbow to flex a lot.  If I wanted it to be steep, I would have the arms much straighter.  I have video of him and Seve working on the left elbow sliding behind his left hip on the followthrough.  Might post some pics later, gotta run.

post #36 of 48
Yeah your right left arm bending controls the angle of ascent coming out of the sand . I've spent probably 200+ hours with Mac probably 40-50 on the short game so I know his stuff pretty well. I've got tons of video as well probably 50 hrs at least but don't look at it to much these days although I appreciate all the info he gave me.
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