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Baseball HOF - Page 6

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

 

MLB and the National Baseball HOF are separate entities. The HOF can do whatever they want in that regard, but I doubt they would without considering the input of MLB.

And that's why my comment started with the tongue in cheek statement: :"If I were in charge" (and an eye roll). ;-)

post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 

No problem. People misunderstand my hillbilly version of the English language all the time. :beer:

 

You're from Alabama, I'm from Louisiana. Misunderstandings are inevitable. ;-) 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

MLB and the National Baseball HOF are separate entities. The HOF can do whatever they want in that regard, but I doubt they would without considering the input of MLB.

 

 

True. But the HOF has a standing rule that those on the permanently ineligible list are not eligible for HOF consideration. So Rose would have to be reinstated by the MLB or they would have to rescind the eligibility rule. I see the former as more possible than the latter.

post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

I don't think public opinion is subject to the same standards of a criminal prosecution.

I think this is part of the problem, though. When somebody gets a whiff of a scandal, the news and the public jumps all over it and we condemn the "offenders" in the court of public opinion. There are some serious repercussions to having one's reputation tarnished, whether it turns out to be true or not. Just off the top of my head, see Shoeless Joe Jackson, or the Duke lacrosse incident.

post #94 of 114

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12128504/pedro-martinez-randy-johnson-craig-biggio-john-smoltz-voted-hall

 

Congrats to the four elected, they are all very deserving.  I just have one question:  How in God's name is Mike Piazza still not in???

post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/12128504/pedro-martinez-randy-johnson-craig-biggio-john-smoltz-voted-hall



Congrats to the four elected, they are all very deserving.  I just have one question:  How in God's name is Mike Piazza still not in???

Bacne. Seriously.
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

How in God's name is Mike Piazza still not in???
Isn't he linked to PEDs or suspected of their use somehow?
post #97 of 114
If you could vote for more than 10 players, I would have voted for:

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Craig Biggio
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Roger Clemens
Barry Bonds
Edgar Martinez
Mike Mussina
Larry Walker
Mark McGwire
Sammy Sosa
Gary Sheffield

But I'm a softy. And I would have wanted to vote for Nomar. a2_wink.gif
post #98 of 114

Great to see those three pitchers make it on their first time.

 

Still crazy that the Atlanta Braves had Glavine, Maddux a Smotlz all in their prime on the same team. 

post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

Bacne. Seriously.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by billchao View Post

Isn't he linked to PEDs or suspected of their use somehow?

I don't know.  He's clearly not in the same stigmatized group as Bonds and McGwire because they are getting much fewer votes than him and their quantity declines every year.  Piazza is right up there and getting closer each time.  Almost 70% this vote and needs 75% to get in.

 

He was ROY, 12 time all star, most home runs all-time as a catcher, career .308 batting average.  And don't forget, he was drafted as a courtesy to his dad by his brothers Godfather (Tommy Lasorda) in the 62nd round.  SIXTY SECOND!!!  That's an after-after-after-after thought.

post #100 of 114
I think it's just the Bacne. Some think that means he took steroids. That's the only reason he isn't in.
post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post

I don't know.  He's clearly not in the same stigmatized group as Bonds and McGwire because they are getting much fewer votes than him and their quantity declines every year.  Piazza is right up there and getting closer each time.  Almost 70% this vote and needs 75% to get in.

He was ROY, 12 time all star, most home runs all-time as a catcher, career .308 batting average.  And don't forget, he was drafted as a courtesy to his dad by his brothers Godfather (Tommy Lasorda) in the 62nd round.  SIXTY SECOND!!!  That's an after-after-after-after thought.
I completely agree, he is HoF worthy. The thing is, if I think there's something there, I'm sure an equally ignorant sportswriter probably thinks so, too, and votes accordingly. I know there are some who have said they refuse to vote for anyone out of that era.

If he is that close and his numbers are going up, that's usually a sign that he will make it at some point.
post #102 of 114
Thread Starter 

I have one question? Why do some of the writers think that Craig Biggio is worthy this year but did not think so the last two years?

 

If you look at his stats, he wasn't very far off from Derek Jeter who may end up being the first unanimous selection to the HOF. The biggest difference is that Biggio played for a lousy team a lot of his career and Jeter had 734 postseason plate appearances vs. 167 for Biggio. If Biggio played in NY, Chicago or LA he would have been first ballot easily.

The BWAA suck at this.

post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

I have one question? Why do some of the writers think that Craig Biggio is worthy this year but did not think so the last two years?

If you look at his stats, he wasn't very far off from Derek Jeter who may end up being the first unanimous selection to the HOF. The biggest difference is that Biggio played for a lousy team a lot of his career and Jeter had 734 postseason plate appearances vs. 167 for Biggio. If Biggio played in NY, Chicago or LA he would have been first ballot easily.
The BWAA suck at this.

Comparable stats but 2 different positions.....
post #104 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

I have one question? Why do some of the writers think that Craig Biggio is worthy this year but did not think so the last two years?
The same could be said about a lot of HoF players who don't get in their first few years. There are a lot of reasons for this. It could strength of competition, or lack thereof (2013 was a weird ballot year muddled by PED-linked candidates). Part of it may be that some voters will not vote for someone their first year on the ballot. Mostly it's because the BWAA is a fickle beast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

If you look at his stats, he wasn't very far off from Derek Jeter who may end up being the first unanimous selection to the HOF. The biggest difference is that Biggio played for a lousy team a lot of his career and Jeter had 734 postseason plate appearances vs. 167 for Biggio.
I doubt that Jeter will be a unanimous vote. There are going to be people who won't vote for him, just because (see my statement above).

I haven't compared the stats too deeply, but Jeter sports a .310 career BA to Biggio's .285 and hit 400 more hits while only having 300 more at bats. That's a pretty big difference without having to look at the postseason at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post

The BWAA suck at this.
Absolutely.
post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by phan52 View Post
 

I have one question?  Why do some of the writers think that Craig Biggio is worthy this year but did not think so the last two years? ......

 

The BWAA suck at this.

You already know the answer. :-P

 

Seriously.  They are (collectively) idiots.  Somebody voted for Darin Erstad.  That should tell you something right there.  And, like you mentioned, the fact that people magically get more votes and somehow "become" hall of fame worthy several years later is silly.

 

Also, I think @billchao is probably correct that Derek Jeter will absolutely not be a unanimous choice.  Heck, think about Randy Johnson.  People ooh and aah at the fact that he got 94% of the vote.  I look at that and become angry at the idea that 6% of those morons DIDNT vote for him.  What the hell is wrong with you people?!?!?!  I would like to see a person who is into baseball enough that he has a HOF vote look people dead in the eye, and with a straight face, explain exactly why they think he doesn't belong.

post #106 of 114

The logjam plays a role too.  Biggio would have been in last year if not for the 10 player cap on BWAA ballots.

 

I'm thrilled to see Biggio make it because he went to my high school.  He holds many of the school's football and baseball records.  I "met" him once at a game in Pittsburgh. I wore my high school football t-shirts and stuff and he noticed, said hello, asked about a coach we both had (quoted in the espn article), and threw us a couple balls.  

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/yankees/post/_/id/81980/craig-biggio-and-i-go-back-a-long-way?ex_cid=espnapi_public

 

He was a very good player for a very long time and by all accounts a great guy.

post #107 of 114
Baseball HOF is a joke. A bunch of drunk baseball writers..

One writer admitted this week leaving Pedro off his ballot because of how he tormented his beloved Cleveland Indians?

Seriously Craig Biggio?? Lol! I think he only barely batted over .300 a couple times??? 3/4 maybe?? That's hilarious if you think about it.. I love baseball but the HOF is meaningless to me. If the NFL inducted like baseball it would be practically empty.. No Lawrence Taylor etc etc...

Any opinion you have it's weird Pete Rose, Bonds or Clemens not there, I'm speaking about what they did on the field as players. Especially Clemens.. He never failed any drug tests and was acquitted etc.. Anyone that doesn't think Clemens is one of the best pitchers ever, knows nothing about baseball. it's all strange.
Edited by golfbarefoot - 1/11/15 at 6:21pm
post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfbarefoot View Post

Seriously Craig Biggio?? Lol! I think he only barely batted over .300 a couple times??? 3/4 maybe?? That's hilarious if you think about it.. I love baseball but the HOF is meaningless to me. If the NFL inducted like baseball it would be practically empty.. No Lawrence Taylor etc etc...
 

 

From 91-99 Biggio hit .299/.391/.451, averaging 38 doubles and 33 stolen bases in a pitcher's park.  Four of five gold gloves, too.  He was probably the best 2b in the game over that time frame, then added another 8 years of good, if not great baseball.  Not to mention 3,000 hits, fifth most doubles of all time, 15th most runs scored...etc.

 

Here are the similar players per baseball-reference:

 

Similar Batters  
 View Similar Player Links in Pop-up
 Compare Stats to Similars
  1. Robin Yount (836) *
  2. Derek Jeter (825)
  3. Joe Morgan (779) *
  4. Paul Molitor (778) *
  5. Roberto Alomar (773) *
  6. Cal Ripken (761) *
  7. Johnny Damon (760)
  8. Brooks Robinson (739) *
  9. Lou Whitaker (739)
  10. George Brett (735) *

 

8 of the 10 are hall of famers.  (i'm counting DJ).  He's right in the middle of those guys in terms of BA/OBP/SLG, and HRs and Doubles 

 

 Sim  Player              From  To Yrs  WAR   G    AB    R    H   2B  3B  HR  RBI  BB   SO    BA   OBP   SLG   SB   CS OPS+ 
+---++-------------------+---------+--+-----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+
      Craig Biggio        1988-2007 20  65.1 2850 10876 1844 3060 668  55 291 1175 1160 1753  .281  .363  .433  414 124  112
 836* Robin Yount         1974-1993 20  77.0 2856 11008 1632 3142 583 126 251 1406  966 1350  .285  .342  .430  271 105  115
 825  Derek Jeter         1995-2014 20  71.8 2747 11195 1923 3465 544  66 260 1311 1082 1840  .310  .377  .440  358  97  115
 779* Joe Morgan          1963-1984 22 100.3 2649  9277 1650 2517 449  96 268 1133 1865 1015  .271  .392  .427  689 162  132
 778* Paul Molitor        1978-1998 21  75.4 2683 10835 1782 3319 605 114 234 1307 1094 1244  .306  .369  .448  504 131  122
 773* Roberto Alomar      1988-2004 17  66.8 2379  9073 1508 2724 504  80 210 1134 1032 1140  .300  .371  .443  474 114  116
 761* Cal Ripken          1981-2001 21  95.5 3001 11551 1647 3184 603  44 431 1695 1129 1305  .276  .340  .447   36  39  112
 760  Johnny Damon        1995-2012 18  56.0 2490  9736 1668 2769 522 109 235 1139 1003 1257  .284  .352  .433  408 103  104
 739* Brooks Robinson     1955-1977 23  78.3 2896 10654 1232 2848 482  68 268 1357  860  990  .267  .322  .401   28  22  104
 739  Lou Whitaker        1977-1995 19  74.9 2390  8570 1386 2369 420  65 244 1084 1197 1099  .276  .363  .426  143  75  117
 735* George Brett        1973-1993 21  88.4 2707 10349 1583 3154 665 137 317 1596 1096  908  .305  .369  .487  201  97  135
      Craig Biggio        1988-2007 20  65.1 2850 10876 1844 3060 668  55 291 1175 1160 1753  .281  .363  .433  414 124  112
+---++-------------------+---------+--+-----+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+
 Average of all 10 Players          20  78.4 2679 10224 1601 2949 537  90 271 1316 1132 1214  .288  .363  .438  311  94  115
 Avg of all 9 Retired Players       20  79.2 2672 10117 1565 2891 537  93 273 1316 1138 1145  .286  .361  .438  306  94  117
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