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how to draw with lots of lag - Page 2

post #19 of 33
I've given up on trying to draw the driver. Either hit pulls or worm burners. I'll swing and see my swing blur path going in off the tee, any other club, I see it go out. I'm starting to believe because the ball's teed up, and by the left foot, the path will always be in of the swing circle.

I think I'll stick to my more reliable open stance fade, even though its not as pretty as a big push draw I see on TV. If I need a draw, 3W it is.
post #20 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by nowayjoze View Post

I've given up on trying to draw the driver. Either hit pulls or worm burners. I'll swing and see my swing blur path going in off the tee, any other club, I see it go out. I'm starting to believe because the ball's teed up, and by the left foot, the path will always be in of the swing circle.

I think I'll stick to my more reliable open stance fade, even though its not as pretty as a big push draw I see on TV. If I need a draw, 3W it is.

Of course. By the time the driver is on its way up, it's probably heading left and you either hit a pull draw or a cut.
post #21 of 33

When hitting a draw try to make a in to out swing path to hit the inside half of the ball with a closed stance, when hitting a cut/fade try to make a out to in swing path to hit the outside half of the ball with a more open stance. I am not a firm believer in changing your grip or lag, the swing stays the same just on a different swing path. On the range I will lay down an alignment stick about 3 yards in front of me pointing at the target and vary my swing path and stance to produce a draw or fade. It seems to work for me, Brandt Snedeker has a great description of this analogy on youtube.   :-\ 

post #22 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post

When hitting a draw try to make a in to out swing path to hit the inside half of the ball with a closed stance, when hitting a cut/fade try to make a out to in swing path to hit the outside half of the ball with a more open stance. I am not a firm believer in changing your grip or lag, the swing stays the same just on a different swing path. On the range I will lay down an alignment stick about 3 yards in front of me pointing at the target and vary my swing path and stance to produce a draw or fade. It seems to work for me, Brandt Snedeker has a great description of this analogy on youtube.   b3_huh.gif  

Your post was… not entirely, strictly on topic. The topic here is more precise than your general answer for curving the ball.

But I do have one question: you are aware of the fact that only face angle determines what part of the ball that is struck, not the swing path, correct?
post #23 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Your post was… not entirely, strictly on topic. The topic here is more precise than your general answer for curving the ball.

But I do have one question: you are aware of the fact that only face angle determines what part of the ball that is struck, not the swing path, correct?

What? I was not aware of this. How could an outside-in path hit the inside of the golf ball with the face pointed in ANY direction? I'm not challenging you but asking because I know you have an answer.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark View Post

What? I was not aware of this. How could an outside-in path hit the inside of the golf ball with the face pointed in ANY direction? I'm not challenging you but asking because I know you have an answer.

 

I sent you a PM, but I'd like the person I asked to answer the question.

post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Your post was… not entirely, strictly on topic. The topic here is more precise than your general answer for curving the ball.

But I do have one question: you are aware of the fact that only face angle determines what part of the ball that is struck, not the swing path, correct?


Well, I am not a pro but can play the game well and nope not a clue about face angle compared to swing path. SOOO I guess in order to hit a draw with lots of lag you have to have perfect timing, got it!

post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post


Well, I am not a pro but can play the game well and nope not a clue about face angle compared to swing path. SOOO I guess in order to hit a draw with lots of lag you have to have perfect timing, got it!

How did "timing" get in this conversation?

So you're not aware that path plays no role in determining what part of the ball is struck? That it's purely face angle?
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark View Post


What? I was not aware of this. How could an outside-in path hit the inside of the golf ball with the face pointed in ANY direction? I'm not challenging you but asking because I know you have an answer.


A outside to in swing path will hit the outside of the ball which causes a fade/cut/slice spin on the ball. The face can be square in any direction and still produce a cut or draw due to the swing path because you are hitting the inside or outside half of the ball producing the spin needed to "curve" the ball.

post #28 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


How did "timing" get in this conversation?

So you're not aware that path plays no role in determining what part of the ball is struck? That it's purely face angle?


Aaaaa, but it does. So if you have a in to out swing you dont think you are hitting the ball on the outside half producing cut/slice spin. It sure seems to work for me.

post #29 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post
 


Aaaaa, but it does. So if you have a in to out swing you dont think you are hitting the ball on the outside half producing cut/slice spin. It sure seems to work for me.


Im sorry with a in to out swing you would be hitting the inside half producing draw/hook spin. Sorry about that.

post #30 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by "CUT69" View Post

A outside to in swing path will hit the outside of the ball which causes a fade/cut/slice spin on the ball. The face can be square in any direction and still produce a cut or draw due to the swing path because you are hitting the inside or outside half of the ball producing the spin needed to "curve" the ball.


Thank you for answering. At best you're being unclear and relying on twisting of words to be truthful. At worst you're dead wrong, depending on how you define the inside or outside of the ball.

Most would draw it as being separated by a line from 3 to 9 o'clock from the player's point of view. The "outside" of the golf ball is then anything before 3 o'clock and the inside is anything after 3 o'clock. Yet this is clearly inaccurate:

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by "CUT69" View Post

A outside to in swing path will hit the outside of the ball which causes a fade/cut/slice spin on the ball.

 

Now, you said that a swing path outside to in will hit the outside of the golf ball. So let's take the only other definition of "outside" that we can. Let's suppose that we swing from 2:30 to 8:30, and draw the line separating the outside from the inside that way. To strike the "outside" of the golf ball in that case, we'd have to hit the ball before 2:30, which would actually produce DRAW spin.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by "CUT69" View Post

The face can be square in any direction and still produce a cut or draw due to the swing path because you are hitting the inside or outside half of the ball producing the spin needed to "curve" the ball.

 

If the face is square (one assumes this means 3 o'clock is struck), then you're correct that you can fade or draw the ball, but you're incorrect that the outside or inside of the golf ball will be struck, unless you use your definition and draw the dividing line along the path of the club, but in that case, striking the inside of the golf ball will always result in a fade/slice, and striking the outside will result in a draw/hook.

 

So I misspoke when I said that you were, at best, being unclear, because not only does the path not determine which side of the golf ball is struck, even if we say the path determines the dividing line between inside/outside, you had the resulting spin precisely backwards.

 

As the image shows, "striking the inside part of the golf ball" can be a good visual or mental picture, but it also clearly shows the simple reality: that face angle and face angle alone - for nearly a 180° range of paths, determines where the golf ball is struck.

 

I've written all of this not because I delight in showing people that they're wrong, but rather, because I think that the truth can be liberating and freeing, and the truth is always a better help than old wive's tales and silly tricks and things that aren't really even true at all. You'll find that as you look around this site there's a lot of this kind of discussion, and we welcome it with open arms and open minds. Welcome to The Sand Trap.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by "CUT69" View Post

Im sorry with a in to out swing you would be hitting the inside half producing draw/hook spin. Sorry about that.

 

You could produce a draw, a hook, or a cut by striking the ball "after" 3 o'clock, depending on where the path is (all in to out demonstrated here):

 

Path 3:30, Face 3:15 - Draw/Hook

Path 3:30, Face 3:30 - Straight Push

Path 3:15, Face 3:30 - Fade/Slice

post #31 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


How did "timing" get in this conversation?

So you're not aware that path plays no role in determining what part of the ball is struck? That it's purely face angle?

How does swing path not determine what part of the ball is struck?  Can you explain what the face angle should be when you hit a cut compared to what part of the ball the face makes contact with

when you hit a cut. What part of the ball is the face "angle" making contact with to produce that cut? Inside half or outside half, maybe I am confused.

 

"Timing" got involved when you say face angle, I am assuming you are producing a cut or draw with turning the club at impact either to produce a cut or draw. In order to do that you would have to have perfect" timing", I dont understand please explain.

post #32 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post
 

How does swing path not determine what part of the ball is struck?  Can you explain what the face angle should be when you hit a cut compared to what part of the ball the face makes contact with when you hit a cut. What part of the ball is the face "angle" making contact with to produce that cut?

 

Please read what I've already written. I even included a nice graphic.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post
 

"Timing" got involved when you say face angle, I am assuming you are producing a cut or draw with turning the club at impact either to produce a cut or draw.

 

You're assuming incorrectly, and I'd refer you here: http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws .

post #33 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by CUT69 View Post
 

How does swing path not determine what part of the ball is struck?  Can you explain what the face angle should be when you hit a cut compared to what part of the ball the face makes contact with

 

Because the ball is a sphere for all intent and purposes. Meaning that anything that makes in contact with a ball will be perpendicular to the cover. If you have a perfect sphere rolling along the ground, with no friction, the contact point is perpendicular to the ground and the ball. Given the ball isn't perfect, and there is friction, but it proves the point that the angle of which the ball makes contact with the surface is totally dictated by the angle of the surface. This means it doesn't matter which way the clubface is traveling, the point of contact will be the face angle, given some constraints being the physical size of the club head and the possibility of hitting the hosel or completely missing the ball. 

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