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Operation: Single Digits 2014 - Page 20

post #343 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I didn't really give it much thought, until @harmonious told us all what it would take.

It sounds really hard.

The one that stuck out to me is sand saves and up and down greater than 50%. I end up in bunkers a lot and usually get out in one, but getting close to the pin is a completely different level of control. He said you need 50% sand saves? Most of us are happy just to get out of a bunker.

Anything north of 50% GIR on any green us just incredible, the level of controlling distance and spin on the club is really amazing.

It's harder than we think.


Thanks for remembering my post. Actually, what I meant to say is that you should include bunker shots with short game up-and-down percentages.  I think that's how the PGA tour figures up-and-down percentage: anything inside 30 yards to the pin counts, including sand.  They have a separate listing for sand only.

 

In any event, you need to give yourself a legitimate chance at sand saves every time you are in a bunker. Just getting it out is a good starting point, but to get to scratch it's not nearly good enough. And really, with good technique (see the many sand thread comments from scratch or better players) getting it inside 6-8 feet shouldn't be that difficult. Just takes practice and recognizing the different types of sand.

post #344 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
Just takes practice and recognizing the different types of sand.


I think this is the biggest issue. Pros have the advantage of playing in very consistent sand conditions, whereas, you and I......

 

Even if you practice and get good of getting out of a particular bunker, you could show up to another bunker on the same course and it be completely different. At least, this has been my experience in PHX.

post #345 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgreen85 View Post
 


I think this is the biggest issue. Pros have the advantage of playing in very consistent sand conditions, whereas, you and I......

 

Even if you practice and get good of getting out of a particular bunker, you could show up to another bunker on the same course and it be completely different. At least, this has been my experience in PHX.

I don't agree. I think the fact that amateurs don't usually get the chance to practice from bunkers can matter, but you can't blame the conditions. If anything the pros play from more different types of sand than we do, being world travelers and all. But they prepare for it. Most of us only get a handful of chances to try bunker shots a round and we try to avoid them altogether.

 

Try dropping balls into the same freshly raked bunker every time, it's still really hard to manage a good sand save %. Even just hitting them into a 6 foot circle is tough, and remember the pros often have really tough bunkers to hit out of compared to any on a local course. Getting random, different lies is a big reason why we avoid bunkers outright. You're not supposed to have a consistent lie.

post #346 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciusWooding View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgreen85 View Post

 


I think this is the biggest issue. Pros have the advantage of playing in very consistent sand conditions, whereas, you and I......

Even if you practice and get good of getting out of a particular bunker, you could show up to another bunker on the same course and it be completely different. At least, this has been my experience in PHX.
I don't agree. I think the fact that amateurs don't usually get the chance to practice from bunkers can matter, but you can't blame the conditions. If anything the pros play from more different types of sand than we do, being world travelers and all. But they prepare for it. Most of us only get a handful of chances to try bunker shots a round and we try to avoid them altogether.

Try dropping balls into the same freshly raked bunker every time, it's still really hard to manage a good sand save %. Even just hitting them into a 6 foot circle is tough, and remember the pros often have really tough bunkers to hit out of compared to any on a local course. Getting random, different lies is a big reason why we avoid bunkers outright. You're not supposed to have a consistent lie.

To add to this, the sand the pros play in is probably softer as the balls appear to be buried much deeper.

I went to the beach to hit out of soft and fluffy sand, what a workout!
post #347 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


To add to this, the sand the pros play in is probably softer as the balls appear to be buried much deeper.

I went to the beach to hit out of soft and fluffy sand, what a workout!

 

 

I've done that in the past, and can totally agree, it is draining. Still, I think I'm going to try it again, even though the sand at the courses I play are usually very hard packed sand. There is a driving range by my house that has a practice bunker, but it's adjacent to a very small green, and again, the sand is hard packed, and they charge 5.00 for 30 mins.

post #348 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I didn't really give it much thought, until @harmonious told us all what it would take.

It sounds really hard.

The one that stuck out to me is sand saves and up and down greater than 50%. I end up in bunkers a lot and usually get out in one, but getting close to the pin is a completely different level of control. He said you need 50% sand saves? Most of us are happy just to get out of a bunker.

Anything north of 50% GIR on any green us just incredible, the level of controlling distance and spin on the club is really amazing.

It's harder than we think.


I don't think that a certain sand save percentage is always necessary to be a "scratch golfer". I know of at least one course that doesn't have a single green side sand bunker on the entire course and I know of a couple more that have so few that it's fairly unusual to get in one of them.

 

Some courses that had bunkers at one time have turned them into grass bunkers. I heard one superintendent last year more or less bragging about how many bunkers he had eliminated in his career.

post #349 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post


I don't think that a certain sand save percentage is always necessary to be a "scratch golfer". I know of at least one course that doesn't have a single green side sand bunker on the entire course and I know of a couple more that have so few that it's fairly unusual to get in one of them.

 

Some courses that had bunkers at one time have turned them into grass bunkers. I heard one superintendent last year more or less bragging about how many bunkers he had eliminated in his career.

 

 

Can you tell me which course this is so I can book my next golf trip?? lol 

post #350 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by BENtSwing32 View Post
 

 

Can you tell me which course this is so I can book my next golf trip?? lol 

Yeah. Desoto Golf Course, Fort Payne, Al. has no bunkers. Although I can't imagine planning a trip around that course (that would be funny)...But I've played many rounds there and there were scratch golfers whose handicap was based on that course that probably haven't hit a bunker shot in years.

 

Trenton Golf Course, Trenton, Ga. has so few that the last four or five times I played there we threw some balls in a bunker by the 18th green after the round to practice some bunker shots because none of us had been in one all day. Actually is a good (and fun) course to play and if you can somehow manage to get through holes 3, 4, and 5 without a disaster it's easy enough to shoot a good score.

 

Oh, and none of the Chattanooga city courses have a whole lot of bunkers so it's fairly easy to get around without getting in a bunker. Except for hole number 10 at Moccasin Bend, I hit that bunker plenty.


Edited by MS256 - 2/3/14 at 11:31pm
post #351 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BENtSwing32 View Post
 

 

Can you tell me which course this is so I can book my next golf trip?? lol 

Yeah. Desoto Golf Course, Fort Payne, Al. has no bunkers. Although I can't imagine planning a trip around that course (that would be funny)...But I've played many rounds there and there were scratch golfers whose handicap was based on that course that probably haven't hit a bunker shot in years.

 

Trenton Golf Course, Trenton, Ga. has so few that the last four or five times I played there we threw some balls in a bunker by the 18th green after the round to practice some bunker shots because none of us had been in one all day. Actually is a good (and fun) course to play and if you can somehow manage to get through holes 3, 4, and 5 without a disaster it's easy enough to shoot a good score.

 

Oh, and none of the Chattanooga city courses have a whole lot of bunkers so it's fairly easy to get around without getting in a bunker. Except for hole number 10 at Moccasin Bend, I hit that bunker plenty.

 

Nice. Establishing a handicap there is cheating! Kidding of course, but that is interesting. No need to work on bunker play, but kinda takes some fun out of the game, no? 

 

On a funny note, I had my first short-game lesson a week ago, and I wasn't allowed to go home until I holed out a bunker shot. It wasn't super difficult, next to zero lip, about 15ft of green to work with . . . but after about the 20th try I wondered if I'd dig to China before I holed one out. Actually did it on the 27th try, a burner that hit the flag, popped straight up and in, but it counted! . . . not bad for a rookie, right?? :8)

post #352 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by BENtSwing32 View Post
 

 

Nice. Establishing a handicap there is cheating! Kidding of course, but that is interesting. No need to work on bunker play, but kinda takes some fun out of the game, no? 

 

On a funny note, I had my first short-game lesson a week ago, and I wasn't allowed to go home until I holed out a bunker shot. It wasn't super difficult, next to zero lip, about 15ft of green to work with . . . but after about the 20th try I wondered if I'd dig to China before I holed one out. Actually did it on the 27th try, a burner that hit the flag, popped straight up and in, but it counted! . . . not bad for a rookie, right?? :8)

 

Not bad.:beer:

 

And you are right. I don't like to play at courses with no bunkers at all. When I was playing there a lot I even made a small bunker in my backyard just so I would have a place to practice bunker shots.

 

I'm not really sure that turning the bunkers into grass bunkers makes the course any easier though. Most of the time a sand shot is more predictable than hitting out of 4 inch rough.

post #353 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciusWooding View Post
 

I don't agree. I think the fact that amateurs don't usually get the chance to practice from bunkers can matter, but you can't blame the conditions. If anything the pros play from more different types of sand than we do, being world travelers and all. 

 

It doesn't really matter if they play in different parts of sand in different regions.  What matters is the consistency of the sand from bunker to bunker on the same course(s).  Amateurs tend to be at a disadvantage on public courses because one bunker is hard and compact and the next is soft and fluffy.  At least a lot of the places I've played at.

post #354 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
 

 

It doesn't really matter if they play in different parts of sand in different regions.  What matters is the consistency of the sand from bunker to bunker on the same course(s).  Amateurs tend to be at a disadvantage on public courses because one bunker is hard and compact and the next is soft and fluffy.  At least a lot of the places I've played at.


You are correct that the places where the PGA tour plays are very high end courses, set up with consistent greenside bunkers. And the tour players spend some time before the tournament hitting out of them to get familiar. With some experience, anyone should be able to recognize the type of sand (or clay, or mud) they are playing from. And with practice, they should be able to develop a method for each type.

 

When my course was built, they brought in different types of sand.  And the maintenance is not best. Some bunkers are soft and fluffy, some are clayey, some never dry out and are hard-packed. Each requires a different setup, a little bit different clubface positioning, maybe even a different club to use. But I wouldn't say any type is more or less difficult than another, once you become familiar with them. The only difficulty could come when/if there is a narrow layer of soft sand over a clay base which could cause you to bounce off the clay and smack the ball over the green. That can happen, but thankfully not too often.

 

The guys who I play with that complain about poor sand in the bunkers after they leave it in or shoot it over the green never set foot in a practice bunker to learn how to play out of them.

post #355 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post


You are correct that the places where the PGA tour plays are very high end courses, set up with consistent greenside bunkers. And the tour players spend some time before the tournament hitting out of them to get familiar. With some experience, anyone should be able to recognize the type of sand (or clay, or mud) they are playing from. And with practice, they should be able to develop a method for each type.

When my course was built, they brought in different types of sand.  And the maintenance is not best. Some bunkers are soft and fluffy, some are clayey, some never dry out and are hard-packed. Each requires a different setup, a little bit different clubface positioning, maybe even a different club to use. But I wouldn't say any type is more or less difficult than another, once you become familiar with them. The only difficulty could come when/if there is a narrow layer of soft sand over a clay base which could cause you to bounce off the clay and smack the ball over the green. That can happen, but thankfully not too often.

The guys who I play with that complain about poor sand in the bunkers after they leave it in or shoot it over the green never set foot in a practice bunker to learn how to play out of them.

I agree that one needs to recognize the type of sand they are playing out of and adjust accordingly, but I do think PGA courses provide the best opportunities for a golfer to have success out of the sand.

For example, I play at a friend's course 10 or so times per year. It's a neat little course, but they are strapped for money and sand has not been added to any bunker in what appears to be 20 years or more. With that, each sand bunker has become, what I call, a "dirt" bunker. At the same time, the original design of the bunkers are in place - many of them having a high lip that you must get the ball over. Now, these high lips have become even higher because the sand is gone and you are even lower inside the bunker.

I don't know about you, but no matter how many times I practice a 10' "bunker" shot from compact dirt which I have to carry a 3' lip, i don't think I'll ever have as much success as when I'm hitting from actual sand which gives me a margin for error and allows me to get the ball UP much easier.

PGA tour players would certainly do much better than me out of these traps, but I would venture to guess they wouldn't do as well as they do from the good sand they play from on the tour.

This is just a mild rant about my buddies course, but I'll bet many people play on courses with these conditions.
post #356 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by boil3rmak3r View Post
 
PGA tour players would certainly do much better than me out of these traps, but I would venture to guess they wouldn't do as well as they do from the good sand they play from on the tour.

 

I would say this is the case with the condition of the whole course. PGA tour courses have perfectly manicured fairways, greens that are smooth and all roll the same speed, level tee boxes, good bunkers, etc. For me, the condition of the course is the main thing I look at when trying to determine where to play. It can be the best layout, but if it's not in good shape, it won't be as enjoyable for me.  

post #357 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post
 

 

I would say this is the case with the condition of the whole course. PGA tour courses have perfectly manicured fairways, greens that are smooth and all roll the same speed, level tee boxes, good bunkers, etc. For me, the condition of the course is the main thing I look at when trying to determine where to play. It can be the best layout, but if it's not in good shape, it won't be as enjoyable for me.  

 

Well said.

post #358 of 748

Here course conditions change all the time even on familiar courses. It's a combination of seasonal conditions and conservation efforts and how the course is treated by patrons. But I don't expect tour like course preparation from the grounds crew and the green fees that we pay.

post #359 of 748
Thread Starter 
So here's the back story on everything. Starting a business is hard and nearly financially draining. Golf is up and down for me and my release is golf. When people tell me how bad I am and start, what I feel is attacking me, it really gets to me. I'm having a hard time with some stuff and I'm not here to get tons and tones of advice and critique. Some tips and stuff are great. When I say I'm trying something and someone is telling me I'm doing it wrong and such but it's working for me I don't see the problem. Anywho I'll give this site another try because the advice is good for reference. I'll keep this thread on topic and as a "diary" as Erik mention so here we go

Shot an 87 at morongo with 31 putts. Had my closest chance and a hole in one. Rolled back and missed the cup by about 6 inches so that was cool. Shot a 94 at rancho california in the wind and rain. Have my third tournament tomorrow at Pelican Hill South course. I'll keep my progress listed.
post #360 of 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleAnthony View Post

So here's the back story on everything. Starting a business is hard and nearly financially draining. Golf is up and down for me and my release is golf. When people tell me how bad I am and start, what I feel is attacking me, it really gets to me. I'm having a hard time with some stuff and I'm not here to get tons and tones of advice and critique. Some tips and stuff are great. When I say I'm trying something and someone is telling me I'm doing it wrong and such but it's working for me I don't see the problem. Anywho I'll give this site another try because the advice is good for reference. I'll keep this thread on topic and as a "diary" as Erik mention so here we go

Shot an 87 at morongo with 31 putts. Had my closest chance and a hole in one. Rolled back and missed the cup by about 6 inches so that was cool. Shot a 94 at rancho california in the wind and rain. Have my third tournament tomorrow at Pelican Hill South course. I'll keep my progress listed.

Good Luck bud.  I don't know if you read above about the putting drills but I think they work well.  I do about 20 putts one handed with each hand nothing outside of 15 feet. Then I throw a quarter down and putt at that instead of the hole for a while.  It makes the hole look huge.

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