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New flowchart re Smartphones for DMDs

post #1 of 40
Thread Starter 
post #2 of 40

Thanks.  The point that I think makes it all confusing is this:

 

 

Quote:
 Does the device contain other applications or features that, if referenced at any time during a round, might assist the player in his play (e.g., anemometer, thermometer or club recommendation)?

 

I don't know of any phones with a thermometer built in, but my home screen displays the temperature through an app connected to the internet.  And every smart phone can access weather.com.

post #3 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

I don't know of any phones with a thermometer built in, but my home screen displays the temperature through an app connected to the internet.  And every smart phone can access weather.com.

 

Accessing weather information through internet is and has been allowed already.

post #4 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

I don't know of any phones with a thermometer built in, but my home screen displays the temperature through an app connected to the internet.  And every smart phone can access weather.com.

 

Accessing weather information through internet is and has been allowed already.

 

Accessing general weather information is not the same as measuring wind speed and temperature on the course during the round.  The rules still require the player to use his best judgement in adjusting to changing environmental conditions at the precise moment and location when and where the stroke is being played.

post #5 of 40

I just think that if you're going to make a flow chart you've recognized that the rule is confusing and should clarify this additional point.  When it says you can't use a phone with a thermometer and most phones prominently display the temperature, which is derived from a thermometer (somewhere), it can be confusing.

post #6 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Accessing general weather information is not the same as measuring wind speed and temperature on the course during the round.  The rules still require the player to use his best judgement in adjusting to changing environmental conditions at the precise moment and location when and where the stroke is being played.

 

Showing weather station temperature on app on screen is not measuring. Perhaps user should know what temperature is been shown on the screen?

 

Dec 14-3/18

Quote:

Q: During a stipulated round, may a player access local weather information (e.g. wind, temperature, humidity) through an application or internet browser on a multi-functional device?

 

A: Yes. The prohibition in Rule 14-3 is only applicable to the specific act of gauging or measuring conditions that might affect a player's play (e.g. through use of an anemometer or a thermometer). When accessing weather reports provided by a weather station through an application or internet browser, the player is not actively measuring or gauging the conditions. 

post #7 of 40

 

Note that most smart phones are capable of measuring slope with their accelerometers, and are IMO in violation because of THAT functionality (top right blue diamond box). Just because the DMD application doesn't show you the slope doesn't mean it can't - the hardware is there (similar to the Leupold GX-4i - it's illegal even without the bright yellow faceplate).

 

Also, many smart phones have thermometers, though they measure internal temperatures and not the ambient air temperature.

post #8 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

Note that most smart phones are capable of measuring slope with their accelerometers (and such), and are in violation because of THAT functionality (top right blue diamond box) whether or not they have thermometers built in (many do, though they measure internal temperatures and not the ambient air temperature).

 

Why spirit level is then allowed in the bottom?

 

I am not saying USGA (and/or R&A) are stupid but...

 

edit. Interesting response from USGA, in post number 233 http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/933490-2014-2015-decisions-on-the-rules-of-golf-announcement-tomorrow/page__st__233

post #9 of 40

This is measuring.  I saw this for the first time this last Nor'easter.

 

.

post #10 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 

Why spirit level is then allowed in the bottom?

 

edit. Interesting response from USGA, in post number 233 http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/933490-2014-2015-decisions-on-the-rules-of-golf-announcement-tomorrow/page__st__233

 

I could be wrong there, then. But if I'm wrong, the USGA/R&A are guilty of being VERY unclear about this kind of thing.

 

If the Leupold GX-4i is illegal because it can measure slope when a bright yellow face plate is attached only, it doesn't make sense to me that iPhones which can measure slope with built-in and non-removable apps. Because even if you could remove the software, the hardware is still capable of measuring the slope - something the GX-4i cannot do without the faceplate.

 

P.S. I don't use my iPhone as a DMD. I have a laser that only measures time ;-), and that's all I use.

post #11 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 

Why spirit level is then allowed in the bottom?

 

edit. Interesting response from USGA, in post number 233 http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/933490-2014-2015-decisions-on-the-rules-of-golf-announcement-tomorrow/page__st__233

 

I could be wrong there, then. But if I'm wrong, the USGA/R&A are guilty of being VERY unclear about this kind of thing.

 

If the Leupold GX-4i is illegal because it can measure slope when a bright yellow face plate is attached only, it doesn't make sense to me that iPhones which can measure slope with built-in and non-removable apps. Because even if you could remove the software, the hardware is still capable of measuring the slope - something the GX-4i cannot do without the faceplate.

 

P.S. I don't use my iPhone as a DMD. I have a laser that only measures time ;-), and that's all I use.

 

Interesting thought here too.  I often take my Canon 60D DSLR with me to the course when I play.  It is not a DMD, does not have a GPS feature, but it does have an electronc level built in for leveling the camera on a tripod.  It doesn't measure slope, just acts as a level, but I could probably figure out how to read approximate slope angles with practice.  I don't turn it on unless I am putting the camera on the tripod, which I never do on the golf course.  I wonder if that is getting into a gray area on this question?

post #12 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Interesting thought here too.  I often take my Canon 60D DSLR with me to the course when I play.  It is not a DMD, does not have a GPS feature, but it does have an electronc level built in for leveling the camera on a tripod.  It doesn't measure slope, just acts as a level, but I could probably figure out how to read approximate slope angles with practice.  I don't turn it on unless I am putting the camera on the tripod, which I never do on the golf course.  I wonder if that is getting into a gray area on this question?

Gray in what way?  Obviously if you managed to make use of your camera to measure slope, you breach 14-3, but that has nothing to do with what other bits and pieces you can have on a DMD since your camera doesn't measure distance.  I don't see your point. :hmm:

post #13 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I could be wrong there, then. But if I'm wrong, the USGA/R&A are guilty of being VERY unclear about this kind of thing.

 

If the Leupold GX-4i is illegal because it can measure slope when a bright yellow face plate is attached only, it doesn't make sense to me that iPhones which can measure slope with built-in and non-removable apps. Because even if you could remove the software, the hardware is still capable of measuring the slope - something the GX-4i cannot do without the faceplate.

 

P.S. I don't use my iPhone as a DMD. I have a laser that only measures time ;-), and that's all I use.

 

I agree that the wording in that particular blue box is somewhat misleading. IMO it should say 'measuring conditions and providing information...'. Nobody is interested what a device is doing internally if there is no output. This is also what the RB's mean, the device has to be capable of providing the information it measures, not just being able to measure something.

post #14 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

I agree that the wording in that particular blue box is somewhat misleading. IMO it should say 'measuring conditions and providing information...'. Nobody is interested what a device is doing internally if there is no output. This is also what the RB's mean, the device has to be capable of providing the information it measures, not just being able to measure something.

 

That's still not clear. The Leupold GX-4i cannot "output" the information if the yellow faceplate is not attached. It's relatively easy to argue that the faceplate does more to hinder the GX-4i than "not launching the app" using built-in hardware on an iPhone.

 

In other words, if the GX-4i is illegal, then iPhones and any device capable of measuring the forbidden things should be illegal as well.

post #15 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

I don't know of any phones with a thermometer built in,

 

They are wisely planning for the future. Temperature, altitude, humidity, are all very soon going to be a part of your phone. 

post #16 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

That's still not clear. The Leupold GX-4i cannot "output" the information if the yellow faceplate is not attached. It's relatively easy to argue that the faceplate does more to hinder the GX-4i than "not launching the app" using built-in hardware on an iPhone.

 

In other words, if the GX-4i is illegal, then iPhones and any device capable of measuring the forbidden things should be illegal as well.

 

But doesn't the question 'is the device capable of' provide the answer? A GX-4i without that yellow plate is not capable of measuring and providing the player any forbidden information, right?

post #17 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

But doesn't the question 'is the device capable of' provide the answer? A GX-4i without that yellow plate is not capable of measuring and providing the player any forbidden information, right?

 

No. Because even though "without the yellow plate" it can't even MEASURE the slope, and definitely does not display it, it's still illegal as a DMD.

 

After going to the left in the flow chart (to the DMD side of things), it immediately has to answer "YES" to the thing, despite the fact that you can neuter it by putting the silver faceplate on, rendering it illegal.

 

Yet an iPhone gets to answer "no" to the second question (or first, depending on how you look at it) and go down in the NO direction instead of left in the YES direction just because the GPS app doesn't display illegal information like slope.

post #18 of 40

I just discovered (you'll see why tomorrow or Thursday) that the new Gx-4i2 is actually approved for use under the rules with the chrome face plate.

 

In the Gx-4 and 4i the yellow faceplate simply completed a circuit or something that allowed the range finder to display the slope it was measuring. So it wasn't truly "disabled" (though I would argue it was more disabled than simply not enabling it via software like you can on a smart phone).

 

In the Gx-4i2 the actual hardware that measures it is in the yellow piece, so the USGA saw fit to rule that the chrome face plate does not have the hardware.

 

It's kind of like saying a battery is legal for a GPS, but if there's an add-on device that measures windspeed, you can't attach it and use it.

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