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# Playing for money pro and cons - Page 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel

Since handicaps are calculated using .96 of the differentials for your best 10 rounds it favors the low handicapper over a high handicapped player assuming both handicaps are fair. Let me explain with a demonstration:

Bill's best differentials average out to 5. Using the USGA prescribed method of calculating a handicap, his handicap would be 4.8 because  5 x .96 = 4.8. His handicap is only .2 strokes better than what his differentials actually are.

Bill's friend, Paul, has his best differentials average out to 20. His handicap would be a 19.2 because  20 x .96 = 19.2. This means Paul is getting .6 extra strokes taken from his differential than Bill (remember, Bill only lost .2 of his differential on his handicap). Paul effectively will lose 1 stroke that he would otherwise be entitled to when playing against Bill because of the so-called "Bonus for Excellence" that is built into the handicap system in the form of the .96 multiplier of your differentials.

Is this one stroke meaningful? You tell me, but it's definitely a stroke that Paul will lose if Bill is any good at haggling handicaps on the first tee (Bill's best strategy would be to suggest that they round their handicaps to the nearest full number for "simplicity's sake").

Your talking index but when the index is put against the slope rating the higher capper will get more strokes, when getting into + indexes they go the other way +3.4 will be at +4 hdcp.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25

Think of it this way. The odds of getting a birdie are much slimmer than getting a par, and a bogey. Just because the lowest score possible is capped in most cases, baring a very rare hole out. This means that a higher handicapper who makes par or bogey has a higher statistical advantage because the odds of paring and birdie is much more Rare for a lower handicap.

Just read an article from a golf statistician. It's been proven that avoiding bogeys is more important than making birdies because of the occurrence of a bogey and how difficult it is to make birdies due to the nature of the game. This means for skins high handicap has a better odds of making par or better due to handicap because their handicap is applied more often.

Unless he's playing a worse than bogey golfer, the low cap isn't giving a stroke on every hole.  In most matchups, more than half the holes will be played straight up.  On those holes the low capper has a distinct advantage.  On the remaining holes, the strokes should simply even out the players.

I've been playing both skins and regular matches for a lot of years, and no statistical numbers game is going to convince me that the evidence of my experience is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel

Since handicaps are calculated using .96 of the differentials for your best 10 rounds it favors the low handicapper over a high handicapped player assuming both handicaps are fair. Let me explain with a demonstration:

Bill's best differentials average out to 5. Using the USGA prescribed method of calculating a handicap, his handicap would be 4.8 because  5 x .96 = 4.8. His handicap is only .2 strokes better than what his differentials actually are.

Bill's friend, Paul, has his best differentials average out to 20. His handicap would be a 19.2 because  20 x .96 = 19.2. This means Paul is getting .6 extra strokes taken from his differential than Bill (remember, Bill only lost .2 of his differential on his handicap). Paul effectively will lose 1 stroke that he would otherwise be entitled to when playing against Bill because of the so-called "Bonus for Excellence" that is built into the handicap system in the form of the .96 multiplier of your differentials.

Is this one stroke meaningful? You tell me, but it's definitely a stroke that Paul will lose if Bill is any good at haggling handicaps on the first tee (Bill's best strategy would be to suggest that they round their handicaps to the nearest full number for "simplicity's sake").

Your talking index but when the index is put against the slope rating the higher capper will get more strokes, when getting into + indexes they go the other way +3.4 will be at +4 hdcp.

Tell me how often a plus handicapper plays against a high handicapper.  Practically never.

Even in our group of 15, we only ever had one guy over 20, and that was just one season.  His game came down and stabilized at around 16-17.  Even when the 4 was playing, he never gave more than 12 strokes.  As I said in my first post in this thread, there was always some negotiation, and it was rare that we didn't settle on at least one stroke less than we were actually entitled to by handicap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stretch

Pro: Might win some money.

Con: Might lose some money.

I Think this covers it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopster

Your talking index but when the index is put against the slope rating the higher capper will get more strokes

Correct....when index is converted to course handicap that difference is greatly in favor of the higher hcp player.

I did read many of the posts and find people's attitude on betting pretty much the same as mine.  I like to have money on the line as long as it isn't beyond the threshold.  For me personally that is a \$5 Nassau with maybe a push on the back side (e.g. you can't lose more than \$20). The group I play with quite a bit does this in teams of foursomes, best 2 net balls is the team score.  There are individuals within the groups that have private bets and I have seen a lot of money cross the table after the round as a result.  But I don't do that as I want it to be fun and bets of much more than \$20 are getting into the not comfortable zone for me.

The group I play with a lot in Winter has a different scheme.  We all throw \$ 5 in the "kitty" and then pay \$5 for each CTP and \$10 to each individual starting with the lowest net up to where the money is gone, so if you're in the lower half score group you get \$10.  A fun game and you don't have to have an outstanding day to win.  Usually, but not always, shooting your handicap will get you \$10.

Stats clearly show that net skins favor the higher handicap player, particularly when there are more of them. The odds of one of them pushing a hole with a bogey when the lower handicap player gets a par is high, and then the odds of them scratching out a par and winning are higher since the lower handicappers would have to make birdie just to halve the hole.

The handicap system is designed to work over eighteen holes, but skins isn't an eighteen hole game, particularly with the "two tie/all tie" convention. It allows the higher handicapper to suck for stretches of holes at a time, relying on the other partners to halve the holes, and then when he happens to make a net birdie or even par, he can swoop in and win six+ holes at a time.

Higher handicappers have bigger fluctuations in their scoring. The odds of them winning when they make a quad are low, but the odds of the hole being tied are high. And then when they balance that quad out with a gross birdie/net eagle, they're probably gonna win the skin(s).

To answer the question, I like to have a little cash on the line, typically in a nassau. And I hate presses because I think it's stupid to be able to win the front but come out neutral because you were pressed on the 9th and 18th holes. You could win the front, back, and total but lose the two presses and only win \$5 on a \$5 nassau. So I leave presses out, typically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

To answer the question, I like to have a little cash on the line, typically in a nassau. And I hate presses because I think it's stupid to be able to win the front but come out neutral because you were pressed on the 9th and 18th holes. You could win the front, back, and total but lose the two presses and only win \$5 on a \$5 nassau. So I leave presses out, typically.

I agree about the press! The 9th and 18th at my home course are both long, uphill par-5s. The guy I play with most is longer and a better golfer than I am. Guess how I tend to do with late side/round presses.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL

I agree about the press! The 9th and 18th at my home course are both long, uphill par-5s. The guy I play with most is longer and a better golfer than I am. Guess how I tend to do with late side/round presses.....

I developed a dislike for presses almost as soon as I joined a club and almost always had seniors (and one really good woman) in the groups. The 18th hole had a creek that took a 295 yard carry so the smart play was to lay up usually leaving about 125 to 130 in.

The senior tees took the creek out of play (even for them) so they always hit a driver and ended up within 20 or 30 yards of the green.

They were going to win that fight almost every time.

P.S. I also hated scorecard playoffs for the same reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

To answer the question, I like to have a little cash on the line, typically in a nassau. And I hate presses because I think it's stupid to be able to win the front but come out neutral because you were pressed on the 9th and 18th holes. You could win the front, back, and total but lose the two presses and only win \$5 on a \$5 nassau. So I leave presses out, typically.

I agree about the presses too.  I would never agree to playing any game with presses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

Stats clearly show that net skins favor the higher handicap player, particularly when there are more of them. The odds of one of them pushing a hole with a bogey when the lower handicap player gets a par is high, and then the odds of them scratching out a par and winning are higher since the lower handicappers would have to make birdie just to halve the hole.

The handicap system is designed to work over eighteen holes, but skins isn't an eighteen hole game, particularly with the "two tie/all tie" convention. It allows the higher handicapper to suck for stretches of holes at a time, relying on the other partners to halve the holes, and then when he happens to make a net birdie or even par, he can swoop in and win six+ holes at a time.

Higher handicappers have bigger fluctuations in their scoring. The odds of them winning when they make a quad are low, but the odds of the hole being tied are high. And then when they balance that quad out with a gross birdie/net eagle, they're probably gonna win the skin(s).

That's why we only give 1/2 strokes on skins with no carries, it seems to be the closest way to do it fair with players that range from 18 to +3.4.

I play better when there is something on the line as well. My friend and I play for next game's cart pass.

Played yesterday probably the last day of Massachusetts golf for January. Have blizzard warning in effect for Cape Cod and bone cold forecast after that. Anyway we played as a threesome at Captains golf course in Brewster and played hole play at 50 cents a hole with carryovers and junk for another fifty cents each. I got lucky and won 15 pts the next guy had 12 pts followed 9 pts. All tolled I won \$5.50 the loser lost about \$6. It didn't break anyones wallet but it sure kept us all playing a lot harder than if we were just wondering around the course keeping our own personal scores.

Playing for money adds absolutely nothing to the game for me so I typically decline.

my early teenage son and i play a few rounds a year together with no bets...outside of that and the occasional charity outing - i honestly can't remember the lastround i played with out gambling...to be honest i am not sure you could be a memeber at my club and not gamble. maybe there are groups who play without it but i have not heard of them...it would be kinda like a dry hump in my opinion to not a have a couple bucks!!

My one buddy kept track of our bets last year, we played somewhere around 40 rounds together, if we are not partners we have a standing \$5 Nassau with automatic presses between us, every single round. When we are on a golf trip it is \$10 with auto's (due to the special event of the trip)...we always have a team match Nassau for 5 with auto's and often times we will add \$1 skins that carryover needing par to win (no cheap ass bogey wins cause of a trainwreck) We always play full HC and everyone is honest with the number...after all of those bets between us I was ahead 16.00 bucks last year!!!! whoohhhooooo winner winner!!!

Bottom line if you use the HC system properly it is very accurate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

Stats clearly show that net skins favor the higher handicap player, particularly when there are more of them. The odds of one of them pushing a hole with a bogey when the lower handicap player gets a par is high, and then the odds of them scratching out a par and winning are higher since the lower handicappers would have to make birdie just to halve the hole.

The handicap system is designed to work over eighteen holes, but skins isn't an eighteen hole game, particularly with the "two tie/all tie" convention. It allows the higher handicapper to suck for stretches of holes at a time, relying on the other partners to halve the holes, and then when he happens to make a net birdie or even par, he can swoop in and win six+ holes at a time.

Higher handicappers have bigger fluctuations in their scoring. The odds of them winning when they make a quad are low, but the odds of the hole being tied are high. And then when they balance that quad out with a gross birdie/net eagle, they're probably gonna win the skin(s).

To answer the question, I like to have a little cash on the line, typically in a nassau. And I hate presses because I think it's stupid to be able to win the front but come out neutral because you were pressed on the 9th and 18th holes. You could win the front, back, and total but lose the two presses and only win \$5 on a \$5 nassau. So I leave presses out, typically.

skins i think you are correct, in my regular 4-some there is only 4 strokes from top to bottom so it seldoms factors in but with high HC guys i think you are correct.

One club i play at as a guest plays 10 nassau with 5 for the press(auto's). it makes the first bet matter, you can win 3 ways, lose 2 presses and still win 20 bucks. i actually kind of like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas

Stats clearly show that net skins favor the higher handicap player, particularly when there are more of them. The odds of one of them pushing a hole with a bogey when the lower handicap player gets a par is high, and then the odds of them scratching out a par and winning are higher since the lower handicappers would have to make birdie just to halve the hole.

The handicap system is designed to work over eighteen holes, but skins isn't an eighteen hole game, particularly with the "two tie/all tie" convention. It allows the higher handicapper to suck for stretches of holes at a time, relying on the other partners to halve the holes, and then when he happens to make a net birdie or even par, he can swoop in and win six+ holes at a time.

Higher handicappers have bigger fluctuations in their scoring. The odds of them winning when they make a quad are low, but the odds of the hole being tied are high. And then when they balance that quad out with a gross birdie/net eagle, they're probably gonna win the skin(s).

THIS, I never play net skins especially with higher handicappers for the reason and explanation above. To me there is far more likelyhood of a 18 handicapper playing like a 12-15 then there is a 6 playing like a 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher

THIS, I never play net skins especially with higher handicappers for the reason and explanation above. To me there is far more likelyhood of a 18 handicapper playing like a 12-15 then there is a 6 playing like a 4

Your probably right about that but if you keep the wagering reasonable when you are in doubt who cares. I am willing to play higher stakes in groups where I know there handicaps just as long as everyone else is truly comfortable with it.

I'd have to learn what some of the terms mean, but I'd like to play for small wagers. Competition with something on the line often brings out the best (or sometimes the worst) in people.

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