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Golf is for the upper class? - Page 6

post #91 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

You don't join a private country club if you're only interest is playing golf.  Most people won't ever play enough golf (with possible exception of southern states) or ever cover the initiation fee, annual dues, bar / meal quota and other fees they hit you with.  Even if I played 200 rounds a year (which is almost impossible), my average cost per round would be over $100 per round.

I'm jealous as hell that you say 200 rounds per year is only "almost" impossible. :beer:   I was over the moon with close to 40 last year (by far the most I've ever had in a single year) ;)

post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

I'm jealous as hell that you say 200 rounds per year is only "almost" impossible. :beer:   I was over the moon with close to 40 last year (by far the most I've ever had in a single year) ;)

I meant physically possible i.e. number of days one might be able to go out on the course here on Long Island.  I played around 35 rounds but that doesn't include short game practice, range time, lesson etc.

 

At best I could hope to get in 75 rounds this year, but 60 is more likely if the weather cooperates.  I'm hoping to play both days on the weekend and maybe one day during the week April - November. 

post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by WUTiger View Post
 

I saw a similar thing down in Oklahoma. In Oklahoma City, the municipal park has 36 holes of golf, about 7,000 each from the back tees but more benevolent from the shorter tees. In nearby Edmond, the Kickingbird city course is as nice as some country clubs.

 

Often, the golf was the cash cow for the city parks systems. Decent golf courses with practice ranges, which drew a lot of play and $$$, which in turn provided a surplus to fund picnic areas and softball fields.

 

It depends on whether golf gets a foothold in the larger parks systems.

 

In the 1990s, a lot of non-golfers decided that they would build upscale golf courses + housing tracts. Unfortunately for the developers, they overbuilt on courses and houses. Our area on the Illinois side has about a dozen such courses. Most have fairly nice houses surrounding them, but you also find about half the lots never got built on.

 

Fortunately for everyday golfers, these have become fairly nice semi-privates: a few people with legacy equity memberships from early homeowners, but most play a flat-rate annual fee for carts and rounds. And, everyday people can make tee times in the open slots - some weeks there's a lot of them.

 

Course builders cut corners on three of these layouts, and they have problems with spot flooding or some greens that just won't keep the grass. I expect them to get subdivided. It would just take too much $$ to rework the original sloppiness, especially with the excess capacity in the area.

WUTiger - I lived in the metro-east area from 1983 to 1988 and golf could be tough to come by - courses were crowded though I wouldn't say expensive.  My wife and I would golf a lot of Saturday afternoons at some of the public courses and it was well within our budget.  We still visit family in the area and I'm amazed at the number of courses and, as you pointed out, the number that started out as high-end housing developments.  I've also seen a couple of courses that were private back in my day that are now public or semi-private.  I was lucky to find out about a semi-private course that I joined for next to nothing - I think about $675 in 1988.  I played 50+ rounds there and my wife played a number of 9 hole rounds as well (she was pregnant with our first and not up for many 18 hole rounds).  Probably the best bargain I ever found in golf.

post #94 of 114

Depends where you live.  I think in North America (USA / Canada), it is more accepted as a common sport.  

 

I know in Asia, golf is still only for the upper class...and sometimes super upper class

post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgeargeek View Post
 

Depends where you live.  I think in North America (USA / Canada), it is more accepted as a common sport.

 

I know in Asia, golf is still only for the upper class...and sometimes super upper class

That's a very good point.  I was speaking strictly about USA.

post #96 of 114

In SE Ohio / Northern WV / SW Pa., I'd say that it's not perceived that way at all. All the people I golf with are just regular dudes (for lack of a better phrase). There's a pretty big range of courses on the $$$ scale, which helps. Generally, I pick quantity over quality in regards to where I spend my golfing money. So, I play a lot of small staffed, family owned places with sometimes questionable conditions. It's mostly worth the trade off.

 

I recently looked into joining a country club near me that is in great shape, and super close to home. With the frequency I play, it really wouldn't be too much more than I'm spending during golfing months. Factoring in the cost for paying dues during the late fall / winter, I decided not to pursue it. I have zero interest in anything non-golf related going on there.

post #97 of 114
My 2 cents, as to the original question...is golf for the upper class, I'd have to say no just based on my own experience and who I see out their playing regularly. It's not for the poor and if I had to guess at which "class" the biggest chunk of golfers fall into it would likely be "middle" to "upper-middle" income.

As a side note, I used to think private country clubs were exclusively for the upper class too (and certainly there are some that still are) but I have plenty of friends that hardly fall into that category who belong to some very nice clubs in the area. It just comes down to what stage you are in your life and how you choose to spend your money I suppose.

Having said that, though, it's still very easy for me to see how those who do not play could see golf as being just a rich white guys hobby, that was certainly the image I grew up with in the 70s. Most non-golfers only really know what they see on TV and let's be real, most of the guys you see on the PGA tour (especially back then) don't exactly come across as guys you'd run into at the local watering hole and/or who grew up worrying about where they're next meal was coming from. Again, just a perception based on how golf came across back then to me (and I suspect to many), it wasn't until I started actually playing that that perception changed.
post #98 of 114

Anyone with a passion for the game can play unlimited golf on the cheap.   Most public courses offer memberships that are very reasonable.  Hell....I can't imagine NOT having a membership.   For anyone who plays a lot, it's the only way to go...IMO

post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Funny, I see a lot of guys making $35k/year playing a lot of golf.

 

Please define "high class." And please follow the rules re: promoting commercial URLs, or be banned, too.


Ok may be you are right but I still can't believe it because I know some of my friends they want to play it and still can't afford it that's why they never tried it. It's the only reason I disagreed.

post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by andymetheu View Post
 


Ok may be you are right but I still can't believe it because I know some of my friends they want to play it and still can't afford it that's why they never tried it. It's the only reason I disagreed.

 

That is more of a personal issue for them, rather than an overall trend of the population. Basically your friends don't value the game of golf enough to want to chip in for the start up cost. That is fine, a lot of people do that. Some people buy expensive TV's, others go off brand. It's all consumer pricing, and decision making. 

post #101 of 114

Is golf for the upper class?

 

Peoples  perception on what the upper class is can be confusing, most peoples perception is that upper class makes 500K or more. That's more like the 1%

 

so lets try to define it. Lets call upper class as 70% income level first and or asset level- does that seem fair?

 

If you own a home ( house, condo or apartment)  you are in the upper class- because only about 30-35% of American have that luxury.

 

Do you have a retirement account or investments, that's great because only 30% have one beyond that they volunteer contribute to or manage

 

If you drive a relatively new car, say only about 3-4 years old or newer, yup you are in the upper class.

 

If your adjust gross income is $62,000 or higher you definitely are in the upper class, in fact your are richer than 80% of all Americans

 

If you are a member of a golf club, as opposed to pay as you play- you are in the upper class.

 

Are you a college student or a recent grad, welcome to the upper class ( or soon will be) because not many people can afford to go or can finance to go without some upper class backing.

 

Not to digress this subject into a political discussion, but most people feel that middle classis someone who makes 75-100K when actually that group  is the upper 12% of income earners.

 

Middle class is closer to 35-40K, That upper 5% that shat should pay more taxes that we heard about during the election, well that's for folks with and adjusted gross in come of about 115K and higher.

 

You say you don't believe that? that's  fine, go on the IRS web site & see for yourself.

 

Now back to the question is it for the upper class, I would answer yes. But there will be exceptions, I don't doubt that at all, but a vast majority who play golf are in the upper class.

post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post
 

Is golf for the upper class?

 

Peoples  perception on what the upper class is can be confusing, most peoples perception is that upper class makes 500K or more. That's more like the 1%

 

so lets try to define it. Lets call upper class as 70% income level first and or asset level- does that seem fair?

 

If you own a home ( house, condo or apartment)  you are in the upper class- because only about 30-35% of American have that luxury.

 

Do you have a retirement account or investments, that's great because only 30% have one beyond that they volunteer contribute to or manage

 

If you drive a relatively new car, say only about 3-4 years old or newer, yup you are in the upper class.

 

If your adjust gross income is $62,000 or higher you definitely are in the upper class, in fact your are richer than 80% of all Americans

 

If you are a member of a golf club, as opposed to pay as you play- you are in the upper class.

 

Are you a college student or a recent grad, welcome to the upper class ( or soon will be) because not many people can afford to go or can finance to go without some upper class backing.

 

Not to digress this subject into a political discussion, but most people feel that middle classis someone who makes 75-100K when actually that group  is the upper 12% of income earners.

 

Middle class is closer to 35-40K, That upper 5% that shat should pay more taxes that we heard about during the election, well that's for folks with and adjusted gross in come of about 115K and higher.

 

You say you don't believe that? that's  fine, go on the IRS web site & see for yourself.

 

Now back to the question is it for the upper class, I would answer yes. But there will be exceptions, I don't doubt that at all, but a vast majority who play golf are in the upper class.

You can't throw income numbers out there and paint the entire picture.  The city / state you live in and the number of dependents has a major influence on the class level you fit into.  $62,000 or even $100,000 isn't upper class in NY, but it might be in many other states.

post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

You can't throw income numbers out there and paint the entire picture.  The city / state you live in and the number of dependents has a major influence on the class level you fit into.  $62,000 or even $100,000 isn't upper class in NY, but it might be in many other states.

 

 

I agree. here in so. Cali 100k isn't all that, in the area where I live, so.bay it's Hard to buy a house for under 500k, at least a decent one. So yeah upper class is very subjective depending on the area where you live and work, ect.

post #104 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

You can't throw income numbers out there and paint the entire picture.  The city / state you live in and the number of dependents has a major influence on the class level you fit into.  $62,000 or even $100,000 isn't upper class in NY, but it might be in many other states.

I agree there will be exceptions, a 100k may not be much but it is in upstate NY, as well as Iowa! and in Maine it is the upper 4% income earners. The question posed was "upper class" in America nothing more nothing less! no geographical adjustment. like it or not 100k AGI is the upper 10% of income earners in this country, not Manhattan but this country. Of course you are only taking a piece of it because I actaully listed several examples. I am not hear to argue. In the year 2014 much of what I have written above IS upper class, its not all about income, it's what you own, bought or in lot of cases inherited- such as a house, stocks, investments or maybe just a stable job.

What obviously skews the numbers is there are a lot of people that make a lot less than 25-40K and don't play golf- yes there are exceptions within that group too.
post #105 of 114

(1) I don't think golf is "for" the upper class, but I would say that it is "for" at least comfortably middle class.

 

(2) I think almost anybody that wants to play golf can play golf, even on lower class incomes. They might not be able to play very much, and might have to bargain some work at a course for some playing time, but they can play. You just aren't very likely to see any of their kids on the high school golf team. They simply don't have the resources to compete with those kids that live on a golf course, have personal swing coaches from a young age, and can start travelling around and entering junior tournaments when they are young kids.

 

(3) My definition of "for" is that an income group can expect to have an advantage over other income groups in making a sport a lifestyle, where their kids can have an equal opportunity for success. 

 

Unlike the NBA, the NFL, and (to a lessor extent in the US these days) MLB, there simply aren't a lot of examples of players on the PGA Tour from lower class backgrounds. Being a caddy was the poor kid's ticket into the golf world for a long time and the top of the professional ranks were full of ex-caddies. With that route virtually gone the poor kids are largely relegated to playing basketball at the city park if they want to play something where they might expect success.

 

There are exceptions, but not many.

post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post
 

Is golf for the upper class?

 

Peoples  perception on what the upper class is can be confusing, most peoples perception is that upper class makes 500K or more. That's more like the 1%

 

so lets try to define it. Lets call upper class as 70% income level first and or asset level- does that seem fair?

 

If you own a home ( house, condo or apartment)  you are in the upper class- because only about 30-35% of American have that luxury.

 

Do you have a retirement account or investments, that's great because only 30% have one beyond that they volunteer contribute to or manage

 

If you drive a relatively new car, say only about 3-4 years old or newer, yup you are in the upper class.

 

If your adjust gross income is $62,000 or higher you definitely are in the upper class, in fact your are richer than 80% of all Americans

 

If you are a member of a golf club, as opposed to pay as you play- you are in the upper class.

 

Are you a college student or a recent grad, welcome to the upper class ( or soon will be) because not many people can afford to go or can finance to go without some upper class backing.

 

Not to digress this subject into a political discussion, but most people feel that middle classis someone who makes 75-100K when actually that group  is the upper 12% of income earners.

 

Middle class is closer to 35-40K, That upper 5% that shat should pay more taxes that we heard about during the election, well that's for folks with and adjusted gross in come of about 115K and higher.

 

You say you don't believe that? that's  fine, go on the IRS web site & see for yourself.

 

Now back to the question is it for the upper class, I would answer yes. But there will be exceptions, I don't doubt that at all, but a vast majority who play golf are in the upper class.

 

No way $35,000 is upper class.  Not even close.  Just tonight on the local news they had a piece and any one under $25,000 is considered "poor".  There is no way that there is only a $10,000 difference between poor and upper class.   $35,000 would barely make it into the bottom third of the middle class, and even then it would depend on location and family size.  Add 4 or 5 kids and they could still be impoverished.

 

You can't just throw around a few unqualified numbers and say that "this or that" puts a person or family in a given class.  Where I am right now in Fleming Colorado $35,000 would be a decent living.   My wife and I are buying a 12 year old, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home, with 2 car oversize garage plus an adjacent second lot for under $150,000.  In Denver the same home would be at least $250,000, and the second lot would be close to another $100,000.

post #107 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

No way $35,000 is upper class.  Not even close.  Just tonight on the local news they had a piece and any one under $25,000 is considered "poor".  There is no way that there is only a $10,000 difference between poor and upper class.   $35,000 would barely make it into the bottom third of the middle class, and even then it would depend on location and family size.  Add 4 or 5 kids and they could still be impoverished.

 

You can't just throw around a few unqualified numbers and say that "this or that" puts a person or family in a given class.  Where I am right now in Fleming Colorado $35,000 would be a decent living.   My wife and I are buying a 12 year old, 3 bedroom, 2 bath home, with 2 car oversize garage plus an adjacent second lot for under $150,000.  In Denver the same home would be at least $250,000, and the second lot would be close to another $100,000.

$150,000? :-D  Around here you would be considered "rich folks".

 

My house and 2 1/2 acres cost $18,000 in 1994 (probably not worth much more now)...Of course in Missouri my house and 80 acres only cost me $46,000 (albeit in 1993).

(They think the land is made of gold around here). B-)

post #108 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post
 

$150,000? :-D  Around here you would be considered "rich folks".

 

My house and 2 1/2 acres cost $18,000 in 1994 (probably not worth much more now)...Of course in Missouri my house and 80 acres only cost me $46,000 (albeit in 1993).

(They think the land is made of gold around here). B-)

 

 

Everything in the south is cheaper....:-P  Areas are all different, even within a city. You couldn't even buy a 40'X100' lot around here for under 250k...just sayin..:-D

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