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Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham - Page 3

post #37 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

 

This is the fundamental problem. The creationists trying to get evolution and science thrown out of the classroom in favor of teaching the Bible. Sure, nobody has disproven anything taught in the Bible...but there's no evidence of any of it being anything other than a book. I could write a book tomorrow about magical dragons and flying monkeys...you can't disprove anything in it, but that doesn't mean it's real.

 

Whether people want to believe it or not, there is a lot of evidence...a LOT of evidence supporting evolution and the big bang theory. Meanwhile, there is no real scientific evidence supporting the majority of the Bible. Matter of fact, again, there IS a lot of evidence that suggests the majority of the Bible is flat out fiction.

 

These people say "you can't prove it" or "it's just a theory", but then want their Bible taken as concrete fact just because it's the Bible.

 

The whole "You can't prove it" line is beyond sad. Just like in science, if you want your Bible taught in schools, it shouldn't have to be disproven, you should have to find real evidence supporting it. Just like evolution...

 

That is what I think is the problem though.  Whether people like it or not a large population of the country and world believe in religion.  A person who believes in religion shouldn't have to listen to their teach tell them that their beliefs are wrong and that creationism doesn't exist as if it is a fact.

 

Conversely, a person who doesn't believe in God shouldn't have to listen to a teach talk about creationism and religion as if it is fact.

 

Discuss both and let the evidence speak for itself.  If teachers wanted to present it in the fashion you do, so be it.  If one has more supporting evidence, then let that speak for itself.  Either way, neither has been discounted and proven untrue as of yet.

 

The government, school system, or what have you, should not get to decide what a person believes, if it isn't a proven fact or scientific law.  To me, if it isn't a fact or law, then you should have to discuss the most popular theories on any subject as they are theories, and have not been proven or disproven.

 

For example, if there were two theories on gravity that had not been debunked, then both theories should be discussed as potential reasoning for why gravity exists.

post #38 of 118
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post

Conversely, a person who doesn't believe in God shouldn't have to listen to a teach talk about creationism and religion as if it is fact.

Evolution is scientific fact. I'm not talking about "primordial sludge to man" but simple evolution.

The school has no place teaching religion. It's simply a matter of numbers. There are too many religions. Do you teach Buddhism too? Why not?

Just teach the facts. Science is science, and evolution exists. Teach that. If you want to leave out "Big Bang" stuff on balance, okay.
post #39 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Evolution is scientific fact. I'm not talking about "primordial sludge to man" but simple evolution.

The school has no place teaching religion. It's simply a matter of numbers. There are too many religions. Do you teach Buddhism too? Why not?

Just teach the facts. Science is science, and evolution exists. Teach that. If you want to leave out "Big Bang" stuff on balance, okay.

 

That is the problem.  They don't leave out Big Bang for balance.  If you want to teach Big Bang, then you need to discuss other possible reasoning as well.  I simply was talking about the Big Bang Theory, not evolution. I also have no problem with students being taught the world views of other religions as well as long as they are presented fairly.  I think it is important for students to understand the many different world views around and how other cultures think of these matters.

 

I also don't think a lot of people really deny evolution in the context you are using it, if you aren't talking about "primordial sludge to man."  We have evolved as a human race in many different facets, so I don't know how that would be deniable.

 

I personally don't know exactly what I believe, but I do know that I was given a fair shake to learn about the different possibilities to decide for myself.  I simply want the same for others.

post #40 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post
 

 

That is the problem.  They don't leave out Big Bang for balance.  If you want to teach Big Bang, then you need to discuss other possible reasoning as well.  I simply was talking about the Big Bang Theory, not evolution. I also have no problem with students being taught the world views of other religions as well as long as they are presented fairly.  I think it is important for students to understand the many different world views around and how other cultures think of these matters.

 

I also don't think a lot of people really deny evolution in the context you are using it, if you aren't talking about "primordial sludge to man."  We have evolved as a human race in many different facets, so I don't know how that would be deniable.

 

You can't in public schools. Teaching creationism is tantamount to breaking the first amendment. It wouldn't fly, the federal government can not mandate that creationism be taught in public schools. 

 

In private schools, that is a whole different matter. I get your frustration, but it isn't legally possible with the way previous court rulings have favored the Atheist view in public schools. 

post #41 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

You can't in public schools. Teaching creationism is tantamount to breaking the first amendment. It wouldn't fly, the federal government can not mandate that creationism be taught in public schools.

 

In private schools, that is a whole different matter. I get your frustration, but it isn't legally possible with the way previous court rulings have favored the Atheist view in public schools.

 

Yes, I understand the issue with the First Amendment.  Unfortunately, you are right and it isn't legal, as least with the way people protest it today.  I suppose it doesn't matter that it was taught for years before, lol.  But yes, I suppose the answer to parents wanting their children to learn about creationism is to send them to private school.

post #42 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Some of the greatest scientists in history were people of faith.  Darwin himself studied theology.  My point about the cherry pickers apply to people in power in education who want to impose their personal beliefs on the education of our children.  Why can't you believe in an Almighty power and accept every facet of The Theory of Evolution?  Of course you can.  They are not mutually exclusive.  It is not an insult to the religious belief of God to accept evolution as fact. Carl Sagan was quoted to say something like "What greater compliment could you give to a supreme being than creating something as intricate and elegant as Evolution"

 

The Catholic Church accepts evolution.  In fact, it is taught in Catholic schools from Kindergarten.  My son's first science work was on dinosaurs, and they were not around when humans evolved. Evolution is not a theory for atheists only.  And again, people of the fringes of religion (both ends) are always trying to divide us.

Well said.  Very well said.

post #43 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

Some of the greatest scientists in history were people of faith.  Darwin himself studied theology.  My point about the cherry pickers apply to people in power in education who want to impose their personal beliefs on the education of our children.  Why can't you believe in an Almighty power and accept every facet of The Theory of Evolution?  Of course you can.  They are not mutually exclusive.  It is not an insult to the religious belief of God to accept evolution as fact. Carl Sagan was quoted to say something like "What greater compliment could you give to a supreme being than creating something as intricate and elegant as Evolution"

 

The Catholic Church accepts evolution.  In fact, it is taught in Catholic schools from Kindergarten.  My son's first science work was on dinosaurs, and they were not around when humans evolved. Evolution is not a theory for atheists only.  And again, people of the fringes of religion (both ends) are always trying to divide us.

 

Lastly, the guy in #4 would have failed Thermo. Diversity created by mutation and natural selection increases the entropy of the system.

 

Agree 100% with this. I went to a catholic school until College. I was taught evolution as well. I was not taught the universe was created in 6000 years. My biology teacher taught use about carbon dating and radioactive isotopes. Pretty much what I believe. I can not disprove or prove a God(s), so I don't try to. I think it is just as likely a God(s) exists just as they might not. It could be a creation of the human psychology to explain what human's can not. Who knows. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post
 

 

Yes, I understand the issue with the First Amendment.  Unfortunately, you are right and it isn't legal, as least with the way people protest it today.  I suppose it doesn't matter that it was taught for years before, lol.  But yes, I suppose the answer to parents wanting their children to learn about creationism is to send them to private school.

 

Umm, or maybe the parents take responsibility and actual teach their kids what they want. I am not saying home school, but you can balance a christian life in a public school system. I think the issue is parents are just lazy about taking responsibility for their kids mentality. 

post #44 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

Umm, or maybe the parents take responsibility and actual teach their kids what they want. I am not saying home school, but you can balance a christian life in a public school system. I think the issue is parents are just lazy about taking responsibility for their kids mentality. 

 

I don't think that's only an issue relating to this topic. It seems today that parents don't take near enough responsibility for their child's learning. Many do, and I commend them for it. But my mother has been a teacher in public schools for almost 35 years, and she has seen over time how parents have taken less and less responsibility and have developed this mentality that it's the school's responsibility to teach their child everything they need to know, and they have no responsibility to reinforce what their children are learning. I could read and write before I ever got to kindergarten. I could do algebra in 5th grade. I understood the periodic table and could even fill a good bit of it out before I got into middle school. But it's not because I'm smarter than anyone else, it's because my mother is a math teacher, and my father has a degree in biology and studied chemistry, and they took it upon themselves to teach me. 

post #45 of 118
I am in agreeance that it is definitely a parenting issue. however I was simply stating that private school is the way to go if a parent did not want their children to be taught things like the Big Bang Theory.
post #46 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post

I am in agreeance that it is definitely a parenting issue. however I was simply stating that private school is the way to go if a parent did not want their children to be taught things like the Big Bang Theory.

 

 

UMM WRONG!!!! Like was said before. Big Bang Theory was taught in private school. I went to 3 private schools from pre-school up thru highschool. I was taught the Big Bang Theory in a Catholic High School. So your assertion that private schools do not teach the BBT is completely false. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post
 

 

I don't think that's only an issue relating to this topic. It seems today that parents don't take near enough responsibility for their child's learning. Many do, and I commend them for it. But my mother has been a teacher in public schools for almost 35 years, and she has seen over time how parents have taken less and less responsibility and have developed this mentality that it's the school's responsibility to teach their child everything they need to know, and they have no responsibility to reinforce what their children are learning. I could read and write before I ever got to kindergarten. I could do algebra in 5th grade. I understood the periodic table and could even fill a good bit of it out before I got into middle school. But it's not because I'm smarter than anyone else, it's because my mother is a math teacher, and my father has a degree in biology and studied chemistry, and they took it upon themselves to teach me. 

 

I was lucky with my mom. I had an a slight issue with stuttering. It wasn't the full blown speech impediment that a lot of people struggle with their whole lives. Mine was just enunciation problem and my mind thinking faster than my mouth so to speak. So my mom bought something like Hook'd on Phonics. I damn well still despise those little cassette tapes. She sat there with me for hours at the kitchen table going through those cassette tapes with me. She was dedicated to help me be able to succeed in school. 

 

When I see the news were parents are always complaining about teachers this, teachers that. Why is my kid not getting better grades, ect.. I am like, LOOK IN THE FRICKEN MIRROR!!! 

post #47 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post

I am in agreeance that it is definitely a parenting issue. however I was simply stating that private school is the way to go if a parent did not want their children to be taught things like the Big Bang Theory.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

UMM WRONG!!!! Like was said before. Big Bang Theory was taught in private school. I went to 3 private schools from pre-school up thru highschool. I was taught the Big Bang Theory in a Catholic High School. So your assertion that private schools do not teach the BBT is completely false.

I think he probably meant that private school would be the way to go if you wanted your children to be taught other things as well.  I think he's saying that if you believe in creationism and want your kid exposed to that in school, then you're not going to be happy in a public school ... the only place to get that will be in private schools (certainly not all of them) who aren't required to leave out religion.

post #48 of 118
I am not wrong. First, last I checked there are more private schools than just catholic. Secondly, I guarantee you that I could find at least 5 cchristian private schools in Knoxville that do not teach Big Bang.
post #49 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post



I think he probably meant that private school would be the way to go if you wanted your children to be taught other things as well.  I think he's saying that if you believe in creationism and want your kid exposed to that in school, then you're not going to be happy in a public school ... the only place to get that will be in private schools (certainly not all of them) who aren't required to leave out religion.

Haha I messed that up. I hate quoting on mobile.
post #50 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
 

Creationists:

 

"But evolution is a theory, and since I don't really know what that means at all, all I know is it isn't concrete fact, why can't we teach words from a book with no source or evidence instead?"

 

"YOU CAN'T PROVE IT!!!"

 

"Oh, the Bible said it, so that's fact. Way more reliable than the evidence found from the most brilliant minds on earth."

 

 

 

I've heard these arguments (slightly paraphrased) many, many times. Now, having said that, not all religious people or Christians are creationists. Only the people who take a literal interpretation of the bible (The parts they pick and choose, that is...)

 

 

But you can't prove the Big Bang theory either, that is why it is a theory.  That is what I find so ridiculous in all this fuss.  It is two parties arguing about ones belief in different theories.  At this point in time neither can be proven so you are putting your faith in the belief of one or the other.  Even if scientists prove that a "Big Bang" happened, how would you disprove that it was possibly a work of God?

 

Also, whoever wrote the bible, whether true or not, was also brilliant.  If it is true, they put together a masterpiece of books/stories to help guide humanity.  If false, they put together a work of art that will have fooled billions of people over thousands of years.

 

The big bang theory was proposed by a Catholic priest (Georges Lemaître) in the early 1900s. What we believe to be the edge of the universe could also be wrong, and could require some modifications to the current theory. This is the basis of science, you find something is wrong and you look for the correct answer.

 

That is the fundamental difference between faith and science. In one case, you know the fundamental truths and don't really care about the details. In the other, you care about the details and the fundamental truths change all the time.

 

They are completely different topics.

post #51 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post
 

 

That is what I think is the problem though.  Whether people like it or not a large population of the country and world believe in religion.  A person who believes in religion shouldn't have to listen to their teach tell them that their beliefs are wrong and that creationism doesn't exist as if it is a fact.

 

Conversely, a person who doesn't believe in God shouldn't have to listen to a teach talk about creationism and religion as if it is fact.

 

Discuss both and let the evidence speak for itself.  

 

This is exactly wrong.  You can discuss creationism in a theology elective in high school or college.  It is an embarrassment to our nation's education of its citizens that there is a single child who might be presented evolution and the bible as alternate theories of life with equally strong evidence for and against.  Just an embarrassment.  The bible has NO place in a biology class.  There is real science and real learning and real evidence (TONS of it) behind evolution.  There is nothing but fantasy and theology and ideology behind creationism.  If some child's parents wish them to be educated in fantasy instead of science, they can home school them or send them to a religious school that teaches fantasy and ideology instead of science.  A child whose parents believe in fantasy and theology instead of science have NO, ZERO right to force other children to be taught that ideology and fantasy are equally valid, reasonable alternatives to real actual science. 

post #52 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SloverUT View Post
 

 

That is what I think is the problem though.  Whether people like it or not a large population of the country and world believe in religion.  A person who believes in religion shouldn't have to listen to their teach tell them that their beliefs are wrong and that creationism doesn't exist as if it is a fact.

 

Conversely, a person who doesn't believe in God shouldn't have to listen to a teach talk about creationism and religion as if it is fact.

 

Discuss both and let the evidence speak for itself.  

 

This is exactly wrong.  You can discuss creationism in a theology elective in high school or college.  It is an embarrassment to our nation's education of its citizens that there is a single child who might be presented evolution and the bible as alternate theories of life with equally strong evidence for and against.  Just an embarrassment.  The bible has NO place in a biology class.  There is real science and real learning and real evidence (TONS of it) behind evolution.  There is nothing but fantasy and theology and ideology behind creationism.  If some child's parents wish them to be educated in fantasy instead of science, they can home school them or send them to a religious school that teaches fantasy and ideology instead of science.  A child whose parents believe in fantasy and theology instead of science have NO, ZERO right to force other children to be taught that ideology and fantasy are equally valid, reasonable alternatives to real actual science. 

 

I agree with the bold part, and so does my son's high school. They have extra assignments which include watching and writing an essay about  "The Icons of Evolution", but Biology is Biology and Faith is Faith. They have separate places for teaching them.

post #53 of 118

This thread is going nowhere fast. The simple fact of the matter is those with faith in creationism won't be convinced otherwise because they place a lot of importance on that faith. Conversely, those who subscribe to naturalism won't be convinced otherwise because they place a huge importance on facts and absolutes. Until the two sides of the debate are willing to sit down and identify common ground, we'll get no closer to a conclusion. 

 

But I think that brings up the most important point. Is there really a conclusion to come to? Whenever you pit science against faith, you're never going to have a definitive answer because you are debating natural laws vs. supernatural laws. They are apples to oranges, and I don't believe they are mutually exclusive. So aren't there more important issues in the world today? Let creationists have their faith; let naturalists have their facts. 

post #54 of 118
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post
 

This thread is going nowhere fast. The simple fact of the matter is those with faith in creationism won't be convinced otherwise because they place a lot of importance on that faith. Conversely, those who subscribe to naturalism won't be convinced otherwise because they place a huge importance on facts and absolutes. Until the two sides of the debate are willing to sit down and identify common ground, we'll get no closer to a conclusion. 

 

But I think that brings up the most important point. Is there really a conclusion to come to? Whenever you pit science against faith, you're never going to have a definitive answer because you are debating natural laws vs. supernatural laws. They are apples to oranges, and I don't believe they are mutually exclusive. So aren't there more important issues in the world today? Let creationists have their faith; let naturalists have their facts. 

This is well stated, but there are a lot of people in between the two absolutes.  "The important thing is to not stop questioning" -Albert Einstein.  I have this quote hanging in my office.  The fundamental approach of science is to keep asking and answering the questions.  With each answer come new questions.  And with each discovery comes new ideas and technology, etc.  It is not a failure in science to keep having questions come up.  It is the objective.

 

My issue with some religious groups is they are the exact opposite.  They don't want you to ask questions.  They want you to believe absolutely what they say to be true.  If find most people to be in between.  They ask some questions and want some answers.  Other things they take on faith.

 

Our golf instruction from this site is very much like the scientific approach BTW.  Which is why I like it.  

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