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Stop Aiming at the Flag!!! - Page 6

post #91 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post

Exactly. So if PGA tour players do it, shouldn't you do it? It's the only way to get from a single digit cap to a scratch. By aiming at the flag you learn how to control your trajectory, distance, and precision.

No. Losing a dozen golf balls each time you play because you attempt stupid shots isn't going to improve your game at all. Learn trajectory and distance by practicing, not by taking risks you don't have to.
post #92 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciusWooding View Post

I don't know about you, but I'm trying to improve my game. Attacking pins makes you a better player. It provides a visual target whereas the middle of the green provides no visual target, which means you'll learn how to hit more accurate shots. It teaches you how to control your ball flight; hitting it in the middle of the green does not. It teaches you distance control better. It improves your short game by providing you with more opportunities around the green. I went from a 16 handicap to a 4.6 in two summers playing this style. And I will not change it.
post #93 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post

I don't know about you, but I'm trying to improve my game. Attacking pins makes you a better player. It provides a visual target whereas the middle of the green provides no visual target, which means you'll learn how to hit more accurate shots. It teaches you how to control your ball flight; hitting it in the middle of the green does not. It teaches you distance control better. It improves your short game by providing you with more opportunities around the green. I went from a 16 handicap to a 4.6 in two summers playing this style. And I will not change it.

Why? A target is a target..... The difference is in the misses.
post #94 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post


I don't know about you, but I'm trying to improve my game. Attacking pins makes you a better player. It provides a visual target whereas the middle of the green provides no visual target, which means you'll learn how to hit more accurate shots. It teaches you how to control your ball flight; hitting it in the middle of the green does not. It teaches you distance control better. It improves your short game by providing you with more opportunities around the green. I went from a 16 handicap to a 4.6 in two summers playing this style. And I will not change it.

The problem is, I have statistics and the OP's numbers in a study to back me (us) up. You basically have absolutely nothing backing up your opinion except apparently having a telepathic link to every tour player. And the idea that aiming at the center of the green won't make me control my ball flight is laughable. You control your ball flight by working on your swing not by picking a target that leaves you dead if you miss. Nothing can be more satisfying than a perfectly executed shot. I don't care if it's a layup or an approach or whatever. You should pick targets that don't put pressure on your game unless you're forced to.

 

You don't need the flag as a visual target, there are many shots where you can't see it from your lie; you can use background or foreground objects to mark your line. I view the way I'll play greens from now on as similar to what I do on tee shots (I hit a very good percentage of fairways), which is to be smart and pick the line that will give me a good approach, not jamming it against a bunker or trying to carry the water at the edge of my range. 

 

It does not improve your short game. It will only force you to rely on it more. If you practice your short game it will already be good. I would rather hit as many greens as possible no matter the situation. Opportunities around the green are the same as saying you screwed the shot up; unless you're talking about pitching for eagle. 

 

Congratulations on getting down to a 4.6 handicap. I'm trying to improve from my current handicap as well and I don't think continuing what I've failed to do successfully will help. I think I just need to take what I do well and use a strategy to make the most of it, not expecting my game to somehow allow me to flag it from long distance every time. If I had a nickel for every time I was a yard into the greenside rough last year I'd buy the book. 

post #95 of 377
I am going to stop replying to this thread for the sake of my own sanity. And everyone else's. Clearly we have two completely different views and nobody is going to agree on one.
post #96 of 377

Last year I started the season aiming full shots to the back center of the green. In those rounds I hit a lot of greens and had a lot of reasonable birdie putts. Even horrible swings resulted in very playable results.

post #97 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post
 

 

Exactly. So if PGA tour players do it, shouldn't you do it? It's the only way to get from a single digit cap to a scratch. By aiming at the flag you learn how to control your trajectory, distance, and precision. 

 

Speaking as someone who has actually gotten to a scratch the best way to get there is not by attacking flags and making more birdies but by not making bogies or worse.

 

I was stuck between a 4 & 8 for a long time until I stopped trying to make lots of birdies. In 18 holes you have 4 - 6 real birdie opportunities on the par 5's and short par 4's. If you can play the par 3's and par 4's even or 1 over and don't have a blow up on a par 5 your chance of shooting even par is pretty good.

 

I learned this by getting beaten by a guy almost 40 years older than me and 40 yards behind me. The guy was always in the fairway, hit a huge number of greens in regulation and never short sided himself. I made more birdies than he did but I also made more bogies and a double or 2. After the round he explained to me that he played the same way I did when he was younger. It took him 10 years to figure out that there are not enough realistic birdie opportunities in a round to make up for the reckless bogies (or worse). He was absolutely right. It took about 2 months to stop going after almost every pin. In that time my handicap went from 4 to 0.

 

It is not a sexy way to try and get around the course. If you hit enough greens you will every once in a while roll in a 50 foot birdie putt or hole out from the fairway for eagle.

post #98 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post


I don't know about you, but I'm trying to improve my game. Attacking pins makes you a better player. It provides a visual target whereas the middle of the green provides no visual target, which means you'll learn how to hit more accurate shots. It teaches you how to control your ball flight; hitting it in the middle of the green does not. It teaches you distance control better. It improves your short game by providing you with more opportunities around the green. I went from a 16 handicap to a 4.6 in two summers playing this style. And I will not change it.

 

The center of the green isn't a specific target enough. You know most golfers never use the flag as a reference point anyways right? If you want your ball to end up near the flag, and the ball curves, then the reference point can not be the fag or the ball will curve away from the flag. Its ball flight laws 101. How many times do you hear a caddie say, "Aim for that". Usually its a tree, or a man made object in the background. Like a part of the clubhouse that might be behind the green. They NEVER aim at the flag. So by this your logic is BLOWN UP. I love blowing up logic, so much fun. So if Pro's don't aim at flags. They aim at something else. Can't they aim at something else to get the ball in the center of the green? Just saying :-D

post #99 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

The center of the green isn't a specific target enough. You know most golfers never use the flag as a reference point anyways right? If you want your ball to end up near the flag, and the ball curves, then the reference point can not be the fag or the ball will curve away from the flag. Its ball flight laws 101. How many times do you hear a caddie say, "Aim for that". Usually its a tree, or a man made object in the background. Like a part of the clubhouse that might be behind the green. They NEVER aim at the flag. So by this your logic is BLOWN UP. I love blowing up logic, so much fun. So if Pro's don't aim at flags. They aim at something else. Can't they aim at something else to get the ball in the center of the green? Just saying a3_biggrin.gif
That reminds me of a birdie I once hit on a par 3. It was the ninth hole of a course I had never played before, and I was hitting a consistent 10 yard fade all day. The pin was on the right edge of the green, so I lined up and aimed for the clubhouse door, which was left center of the green. Stuck that baby to three feet.

Not sure if that qualifies as aiming for the center of the green, but if I aimed any farther right, I would have shortsided myself.
post #100 of 377
Sound advice for average handicaps 10-20+

I tell people to grade based on 10% miss ratios. 100 yds is 300 feet anything inside 10% or 30 feet is good. A low handicap is 5% and pros are 3%. Thats their good shots.

Same with putting. If you miss within 10% of the hole its a good putt.

This takes pressure off people realizing if you have a 50 foot putt, within 5 feet is good. 100 yard wedge and 30 feet is good. Golf is a gane of good misses. If you played perfect the score would be 18 under in a round as Hogan said.
post #101 of 377

Keep attacking the pins Tmac! 

I think thats the best way to get to +handicap.

The more specific the target the better.

post #102 of 377
Low cappers and plus see the pin in quadrants. Draw a 18 foot radius around the hole and divide into 4 sections. They hit to the section that gives them the slightly uphill putt. Its not about GIR for low cappers and plus players. Im often just on fine fringe 12 feet from cup with nice uphill putt. i'll take that missed green all day instead of being 30 feet downhill slider on the green. OP was explaining how higher handicaps should look at a pin. The guys that go low hit sections of the pin. Short left or right etc. In order to be close with a highly makeable putt. I'll take a foot or two on fringe below a hole all day from 12 feet over a GIR with a bad path to the hole. Low cappers hit the right side of a pin, high cappers just see a big green goblin when they look at the hole. But for high cappers that still hit lots of fat or topped shots and need to be grooving a more sound swing, center of green is sound advice to break 90 or 80. You cant shoot in the 60's unless you hit the right side of a pin, not just a green.
post #103 of 377
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post
 

How about this: I'll play 10 rounds aiming at the middle of the green from 100 yards and out, and 10 rounds aiming at the middle of the green from 145 yards and out. If I play more strokes over par from the latter scenario, I will aim at the middle of the green from 100 yards and out every round from then on. 

 

I think that is a fair plan. And I think it is fair to say that there are small adjustments to be made with any strategy. The problem is that the potential variables for SMALL adjustments are just too many to list here. That is why broad scope advice is difficult to give. That said, most people, without an in person GamePlan structure (which we will be offering with schools, etc. btw once the book is released) should heed this advice to shoot lower scores.  It is easy enough to pick an exact target in line with your start line in order to finish your ball in the center of the green. The statistics, very much, speak for themselves.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmac20 View Post


Well, he is a great putter. Me on the other hand... Not so much. I make about 1 putt from over 20 feet in 3 rounds. The only way I can make birdies on par 4's is if I play somewhat aggressive when given the opportunity.

 

This makes you almost exactly as good as a tour player. Your perception of yourself can be misleading. Sometimes you will get hot/lucky and make more but, in itself, this shouldn't change how you look at the advice. Not to mention that your score will improve if you worry more about making pars (less bogeys) and less about making birdie.

post #104 of 377
You know long putting is the only stat amateurs beat pros at. 24+ feet a pro is not trying to hole it, take the two putt and keep the million buck check in sight. So pros are approximately 5% make ratio 24 feet range. The amateur takes a line and hits the back of cup it goes in 11% of the time. Thats why anateurs three putt, its backboarding back of cup in or 12 feet by from 24 feet. Ptos are dying the ball into the cup so they tap in the miss.
post #105 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by impactswing View Post

You know long putting is the only stat amateurs beat pros at. 24+ feet a pro is not trying to hole it, take the two putt and keep the million buck check in sight. So pros are approximately 5% make ratio 24 feet range. The amateur takes a line and hits the back of cup it goes in 11% of the time.

 

Cite your source, please, because I've never seen anything even close to that. Amateurs are pretty good putters, but at EVERY distance pros are better.

post #106 of 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftybob View Post
 

 

Speaking as someone who has actually gotten to a scratch the best way to get there is not by attacking flags and making more birdies but by not making bogies or worse.

 

I was stuck between a 4 & 8 for a long time until I stopped trying to make lots of birdies. In 18 holes you have 4 - 6 real birdie opportunities on the par 5's and short par 4's. If you can play the par 3's and par 4's even or 1 over and don't have a blow up on a par 5 your chance of shooting even par is pretty good.

 

I learned this by getting beaten by a guy almost 40 years older than me and 40 yards behind me. The guy was always in the fairway, hit a huge number of greens in regulation and never short sided himself. I made more birdies than he did but I also made more bogies and a double or 2. After the round he explained to me that he played the same way I did when he was younger. It took him 10 years to figure out that there are not enough realistic birdie opportunities in a round to make up for the reckless bogies (or worse). He was absolutely right. It took about 2 months to stop going after almost every pin. In that time my handicap went from 4 to 0.

 

It is not a sexy way to try and get around the course. If you hit enough greens you will every once in a while roll in a 50 foot birdie putt or hole out from the fairway for eagle.

Good stuff lefty, totally agree.

 

Say, @tmac20 what did you say your handicap was again???? :-P

post #107 of 377

Pretty easy for me to keep track of what works best for me (can't speak for anybody else) because I play about 1/3 of my rounds as part of a team game where making as many birdies as I can is the key to winning. Pars have very little importance in those games because somebody on the team is almost always going to make a par anyway.

 

On those rounds where I shoot at every pin and take more chances I make more birdies...But I also make quite a few more bogies and almost always have a higher score. Very, very seldom do any of my better scores come in a team game.

 

I shoot lower scores on almost all of my rounds outside of a team game because pars are good and I play for them and only get birdies on the really good birdie opportunities (which are mostly the par 5s).

post #108 of 377

What I get from this is trying to eliminate "tunnel vision" for almost all amateur players. When focusing on the flag many golfers focus so much they dont see all the other factors that go into a solid score on the hole. I would say its much like shooting pool, a good player always looks several shots ahead. A not so good player just wants to get the ball in the pocket. By aiming the middle and not aiming at a 4'25" hole, I believe, will take pressure off thus allowing a better more rhythmic swing (good tempo)...

 

I also came to the conclusion long ago that comparing myself to a Tour Professional is absolutely absurd. Im simply not even close to that caliber.

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