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Chipping on the green. - Page 3

post #37 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by VOX View Post
 

I believe that you are penalized for carrying 15 clubs not for using the 15th. Which one is the 15th?

The one declared to be Out of Play.

post #38 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

One is not permitted to use a non-conforming club.

Here's a question (that may have been addressed previously) - in stroke play, a player begins his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. The error is discovered during play of the first hole and he has not made a stroke with the non-conforming club. How many penalty strokes will be assigned to the player and why?

 

Either 2, or 2, or 2+2?

 

Since the 15th and the non-conforming might well be to be one and the same.

 

I'll give him only 2 ps.

 

(I feel like I've reeled in by the Bean or Newby :)

post #39 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 "You may use any club in your bag from any place on the course." I can think of one instance when that statement might not apply. There must (or may) be others.

.

 

Have I missed your answer?

post #40 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 

 

Have I missed your answer?

 

He was playing word games.

 

Actually referring to places on the course where you aren't allowed to play at all.  Not any place that where you would be required to use one specific club, or forbidden to use another.

 

Foul.....  ;-)

post #41 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post

One is not permitted to use a non-conforming club.

Here's a question (that may have been addressed previously) - in stroke play, a player begins his round with 15 clubs, one of which is non-conforming. The error is discovered during play of the first hole and he has not made a stroke with the non-conforming club. How many penalty strokes will be assigned to the player and why?

 

Near as I can tell from D 1-4/12 (point 2), while 2 rules were breached by the same act of carrying an extra and nonconforming club, only a single penalty is applied.  2 penalty strokes in stroke play, or 1 hole lost in match play, are assessed and the nonconforming club must be declared out of play prior to playing from the 2nd tee.  If any other club is declared out of play to satisfy the 14 club rule, and the nonconforming club is discovered after playing from the 2nd tee, then the penalty would be upped to 4 strokes, or 2 holes lost in match play.

post #42 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 "You may use any club in your bag from any place on the course." I can think of one instance when that statement might not apply. There must (or may) be others.

.

 

Have I missed your answer?

 

My first thought was wrong putting green. David suggested adding ESA to the list which then led to a third ... GUR from which play is prohibited.

post #43 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

My first thought was wrong putting green. David suggested adding ESA to the list which then led to a third ... GUR from which play is prohibited.

Ingenious interpretation :doh:

post #44 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulesman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

My first thought was wrong putting green. David suggested adding ESA to the list which then led to a third ... GUR from which play is prohibited.

Ingenious interpretation :doh:

 

 

You're under water and we're under snow ... gotta do something! Cheers.

post #45 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Near as I can tell from D 1-4/12 (point 2), while 2 rules were breached by the same act of carrying an extra and nonconforming club, only a single penalty is applied.  2 penalty strokes in stroke play, or 1 hole lost in match play, are assessed and the nonconforming club must be declared out of play prior to playing from the 2nd tee.  If any other club is declared out of play to satisfy the 14 club rule, and the nonconforming club is discovered after playing from the 2nd tee, then the penalty would be upped to 4 strokes, or 2 holes lost in match play

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Either 2, or 2, or 2+2?

 

Since the 15th and the non-conforming might well be to be one and the same.

 

I'll give him only 2 ps.

 

(I feel like I've reeled in by the Bean or Newby :)

 

Something to think about.  The player has 15 clubs; the player is carrying a non-conforming club.  What makes a breach of Rule 4-1 and a breach of Rule  4-4 multiple breaches of the same Rule?  

What makes the non-conforming club the same as the 15th club?  The player's decision as to which of his 15 clubs he will take out of play comes after the breach of the Rule. Can we predetermine that had it not been established that one was non-conforming which of the 15 he would choose?

post #46 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

Near as I can tell from D 1-4/12 (point 2), while 2 rules were breached by the same act of carrying an extra and nonconforming club, only a single penalty is applied.  2 penalty strokes in stroke play, or 1 hole lost in match play, are assessed and the nonconforming club must be declared out of play prior to playing from the 2nd tee.  If any other club is declared out of play to satisfy the 14 club rule, and the nonconforming club is discovered after playing from the 2nd tee, then the penalty would be upped to 4 strokes, or 2 holes lost in match play

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 

 

Either 2, or 2, or 2+2?

 

Since the 15th and the non-conforming might well be to be one and the same.

 

I'll give him only 2 ps.

 

(I feel like I've reeled in by the Bean or Newby :)

 

Something to think about.  The player has 15 clubs; the player is carrying a non-conforming club.  What makes a breach of Rule 4-1 and a breach of Rule  4-4 multiple breaches of the same Rule?  

What makes the non-conforming club the same as the 15th club?  The player's decision as to which of his 15 clubs he will take out of play comes after the breach of the Rule. Can we predetermine that had it not been established that one was non-conforming which of the 15 he would choose?

 

We can't really know given the facts presented. Rogolf's scenario is well within the realm of possibility, isn't it? It is not difficult to imagine the player rushing from the range to the first tee to make his starting time and failing to remove some nonconforming club like a Medicus from his bag. That's what caused me to guess only a 2 sp.

post #47 of 52

 Does it matter how the non-conforming club came to be  in his bag?  The point is that he had one . Breach of Rule 4-1 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  Additionally, he is discovered to have 15 clubs in his bag. Breach of Rule 4-4 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  There is no way in which we can pre-determine that the 15th club is the non-confoming one and say it is a multiple breach of the same rule.  These are separate breaches of separate rules.  It sadly  adds up to a 4 stroke penalty.

post #48 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post

 Does it matter how the non-conforming club came to be  in his bag?  The point is that he had one . Breach of Rule 4-1 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  Additionally, he is discovered to have 15 clubs in his bag. Breach of Rule 4-4 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  There is no way in which we can pre-determine that the 15th club is the non-confoming one and say it is a multiple breach of the same rule.  These are separate breaches of separate rules.  It sadly  adds up to a 4 stroke penalty.

Colin has the correct answer - the player is penalized 4 strokes for beginning his round with more than 14 clubs and a non-conforming club - breaches of Rule 4-1 and 4-4. It does not matter which club was the "15th", it's only the total that matters. Of course, the smart player would immediately declare the non-conforming club out of play, but maybe there are others who wouldn't..... ;)
post #49 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post

 Does it matter how the non-conforming club came to be  in his bag?  The point is that he had one . Breach of Rule 4-1 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  Additionally, he is discovered to have 15 clubs in his bag. Breach of Rule 4-4 leading to a 2 stroke penalty.  There is no way in which we can pre-determine that the 15th club is the non-confoming one and say it is a multiple breach of the same rule.  These are separate breaches of separate rules.  It sadly  adds up to a 4 stroke penalty.

Colin has the correct answer - the player is penalized 4 strokes for beginning his round with more than 14 clubs and a non-conforming club - breaches of Rule 4-1 and 4-4. It does not matter which club was the "15th", it's only the total that matters. Of course, the smart player would immediately declare the non-conforming club out of play, but maybe there are others who wouldn't..... ;)

 

Thanks, rogolf. I can see that situation as possible. Nice to know the harsh truth!

post #50 of 52

Here in Hong Kong we have numerous tiny personal graveyards established prior to the building of the golf course. These are marked in blue and mandate 'no play'. Drop as a GUR. 

post #51 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post
 

Here in Hong Kong we have numerous tiny personal graveyards established prior to the building of the golf course. These are marked in blue and mandate 'no play'. Drop as a GUR. 

 

On greens?

post #52 of 52
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by joekelly View Post
 

Here in Hong Kong we have numerous tiny personal graveyards established prior to the building of the golf course. These are marked in blue and mandate 'no play'. Drop as a GUR. 

 

On greens?

 

Boy, has this thread ever gone off topic!  What do graveyards have to do with chipping on the green? :offtopic:

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