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How difficult are PGA Tour course setups? - Page 7

post #109 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post

Unfortunately not. The systems are only equal if you shoot exactly the score every time, the bigger the variation in your scores the further above a USGA handicap a CONGU one is.
Take our theoretical golfer at scratch and run those scores again and under the USGA system he stays the same. Under CONGU he goes up 0.1 for every score over 73 and doesn't go down for the 72s (he's already scratch. Over time scoring like this he's back up to 1.5 ish under CONGU but under USGA he remains at scratch.


Yes, but a scratch golfer would most likely have a pretty low variation from score to score. It's not like me where I score (on 9 holes) about 47,48,42,47,43,42, 57, etc. This is why I am a bogey golfer.

post #110 of 120
Thread Starter 
Absolutely, and in our hypothetical example I've given our golfer only 4 shots spread from his best round when he's really on his game to a day when it's howling a gale and he's having an off day, in reality even for a really good golfer it would be more than this. With the scores you've posted the swing over 18 holes would be 30 shots and the difference between your USGA handicap and what you would get under CONGU would be far more probably 5 shots or so at a guess.
post #111 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


Yes, but a scratch golfer would most likely have a pretty low variation from score to score. It's not like me where I score (on 9 holes) about 47,48,42,47,43,42, 57, etc. This is why I am a bogey golfer.

 

I have been scoring steadily over the past 3 months 86-89 range... My handicap hasn't changed from 17 as we are in our Winter Season. Oct - Mar. 

Realistically, my HC won't change until the end of the Winter Rules in March...sometimes even until April or May :censored:

 

That's the worst thing about our system imo,

I play in my weekly club competition throughout the winter, our HC system is mainly based on competition golf, but even though we play these competitions all through the winter they are counted as Non Qualifying Rounds for Handicap Purposes as there is "lift, clean and place" in affect. 

 

The thinking is that Higher HC golfers benefit more from "lift, clean and place" so it would be unfair to use these comps to go towards your HC... It makes a little sense but it's a massive inconvenience. 

 

:censored: and another one :censored: :-P

Very frustrating for someone that wants to see their HC drop

post #112 of 120
Thread Starter 
Absolutely. My lowest rounds are 4 under par (total fluke, even bounced a ball off an out of bounds stake :) ), a couple at 2 under, and a couple at 1 under......... none of which will count towards my handicap - winter and social golf, so I remain a 5 handicapper........ Who will irritate the hell out of the other members (hopefully) when the competition season starts again. And now I'm a cat 1 the rules are changing so every one of my scores now has to be in a comp, no supplementary scores allowed for cat 1 now.

I truly think the US system is far more sensible. It shows what level you are, or at least can play at. The CONGU system is set up to try to stop you getting a low handicap, everything about it is to try to make it as hard as possible. Yes it means that Scratch and better players are lower than the US system, but that doesn't make it a sensible system.
post #113 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post

Absolutely. My lowest rounds are 4 under par (total fluke, even bounced a ball off an out of bounds stake :) ), a couple at 2 under, and a couple at 1 under......... none of which will count towards my handicap - winter and social golf, so I remain a 5 handicapper........ Who will irritate the hell out of the other members (hopefully) when the competition season starts again. And now I'm a cat 1 the rules are changing so every one of my scores now has to be in a comp, no supplementary scores allowed for cat 1 now.

I truly think the US system is far more sensible. It shows what level you are, or at least can play at. The CONGU system is set up to try to stop you getting a low handicap, everything about it is to try to make it as hard as possible. Yes it means that Scratch and better players are lower than the US system, but that doesn't make it a sensible system.

 

That explains why there are so few of them as well (e.g., 448 in Scotland?).

post #114 of 120
Thread Starter 
I really didn't mean it to come over as "Our golfers are better than your golfers" - they aren't I'm sure we're all about the same. It's just that, due to the 2 different systems, what we call a scratch golfer, or a plus 4 or an 18 handicapper is a different thing.

"Our scratch players are better than your scratch players." Sounds like I am but I'm not. What we term a 'scratch player' is what you term a 'plus 2 handicap', and they're about the same.
post #115 of 120
Thread Starter 
p.s. The Scottish survey was a few years ago so there may be a few more now but it won't be by a lot :)
post #116 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post

I really didn't mean it to come over as "Our golfers are better than your golfers" - they aren't I'm sure we're all about the same. It's just that, due to the 2 different systems, what we call a scratch golfer, or a plus 4 or an 18 handicapper is a different thing.

"Our scratch players are better than your scratch players." Sounds like I am but I'm not. What we term a 'scratch player' is what you term a 'plus 2 handicap', and they're about the same.


Yes, I see this.

 

There are probably the same percentage of people golfing at the same relative skill levels no matter the handicap system.

 

There are probably about 450 +2 handicap golfers in the Eastern LA county area (about half of the 9.9 million total for LA county), with roughly the same population as Scotland (5 million).

post #117 of 120
Thread Starter 
I wouldn't be at all surprised :)

Right, really done now. Like I said, good debate. If anyone else comes on and says I'm wrong or I used a picture of a midget in that bunker at the start or something, I'll ignore them.

p.s. The thread was about handicap systems too, Dad, sorry :)
post #118 of 120
A potentially sensitive area handled very well and explained in great detail, kudos Nosevi.

I'm not singing anymore ;)
post #119 of 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosevi View Post

I wouldn't be at all surprised :)

Right, really done now. Like I said, good debate. If anyone else comes on and says I'm wrong or I used a picture of a midget in that bunker at the start or something, I'll ignore them.

p.s. The thread was about handicap systems too, Dad, sorry :)

 

This was kind of implicit, but understood because it is a part of the argument. However, your definition of scratch at +2 hovers close to "mini-tour pro" level. So, of course, a +2 would not get blown away on a tour pro course. Erik already said that the average tour pro hovers around a +4 to +5.

 

I would expect that you, at an unofficial 3 CONGU handicap (and a USGA 1 handicap?), would be only 6 to 8 strokes behind the average tour pro per round. This would only put you at 24-32 strokes behind the field after a tournament. That's doesn't sound like someone getting blown away by the course. Blown away by the tournament field, yes, but not by the course.

post #120 of 120
Thread Starter 
Agreed mate :)
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