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Need some mental help - Page 3

post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

Oh, is that a fact?  So Erik, because it's your forum, you speak on behalf of everyone?

FWIW, I've never taken it that way. The muscle memory = brain therefore everything = brain opinion is just arguing pointless semantics.

In that case as long as you're not physically handicapped, everything would be mental. Working on your swing would be working on your mental game, which just doesn't agree with the way those two words have traditionally been defined.
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post

In that case as long as you're not physically handicapped, everything would be mental.

 

Eating would be mental. Running would be mental. Doing pull ups? Mental.

 

Exactly… Which is why (virtually) nobody uses the word "mental" that way.

post #39 of 57

Lol, maybe you guys need to rethink a few things. 

 

Let me share a story with you:

 

Several weeks ago there was a documentary on TV called "Todd Sampson-Rewire my Brain", well worth the watch. In one of the episodes Todd went to the Australian Institute of Sport and underwent an experiment to show the power of the brain. The experiment relates niceley to golf as the results were measured before and after with a shot map or grouping. Todd was asked which hand he throws with- Right, the scientists then asked Todd to throw ten darts at a dartboard with his LEFT hand. The shots were all over the place as you would expect, most missed the dartboard completely. The scientists then told Todd to go away for a week AND for 5 mins a day THINK or IMAGINE throwing the dart at the dartboard, that's all, don't actually throw ANY darts at all, just IMAGINE it. So Todd comes back in the next week, he's done no actual throwing of a dart left-handed, lines up to the dartboard and hits the dartboard with all ten darts!!

 

The science behind this is that the brain can create neural pathways for physical tasks simply by imagining doing the task. 

 

So is golf 90% mental or is it all about muscle memory and mechanics, there's faults in both statements, both can be interpreted different ways and will continue to be. 

post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Logman, I never said that I speak on behalf of everyone, let alone gave a reason.

 

http://thesandtrap.com/t/72581/need-some-mental-help#post_952270

http://thesandtrap.com/t/72581/need-some-mental-help#post_952272

http://thesandtrap.com/t/72581/need-some-mental-help#post_952276

http://thesandtrap.com/t/72581/need-some-mental-help#post_952279

http://thesandtrap.com/t/72581/need-some-mental-help#post_952281

 

What you are saying is not what (virtually all) people mean when they say "need some mental help," that they need to work on their "mental game," or anything like that.

Is @Pave really our old Aussie friend Logman?  

post #41 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

Lol, maybe you guys need to rethink a few things.

 

Let me share a story with you:

 

Several weeks ago there was a documentary on TV called "Todd Sampson-Rewire my Brain", well worth the watch. In one of the episodes Todd went to the Australian Institute of Sport and underwent an experiment to show the power of the brain. The experiment relates niceley to golf as the results were measured before and after with a shot map or grouping. Todd was asked which hand he throws with- Right, the scientists then asked Todd to throw ten darts at a dartboard with his LEFT hand. The shots were all over the place as you would expect, most missed the dartboard completely. The scientists then told Todd to go away for a week AND for 5 mins a day THINK or IMAGINE throwing the dart at the dartboard, that's all, don't actually throw ANY darts at all, just IMAGINE it. So Todd comes back in the next week, he's done no actual throwing of a dart left-handed, lines up to the dartboard and hits the dartboard with all ten darts!!

 

The science behind this is that the brain can create neural pathways for physical tasks simply by imagining doing the task.

 

So is golf 90% mental or is it all about muscle memory and mechanics, there's faults in both statements, both can be interpreted different ways and will continue to be.

Well, shit ... why am I wasting all of my time practicing then??  I should just start imagining that I'm practicing and I'll be a pro soon.

 

For that matter, this can't be exclusive to darts or golf, can it??  I'm going to go home now and imagine that I am working, and based on the study, I should still get my paycheck, right?

 

Heck, why should I even bother driving home.  I'll just imagine that I'm driving home, and I'll be there.

 

This is ****ing awesome!!!

 

 

(BTW, in the 2 minutes it took me to write up that post I just won the Masters.)

post #42 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Well, shit ... why am I wasting all of my time practicing then??  I should just start imagining that I'm practicing and I'll be a pro soon.

 

For that matter, this can't be exclusive to darts or golf, can it??  I'm going to go home now and imagine that I am working, and based on the study, I should still get my paycheck, right?

 

Heck, why should I even bother driving home.  I'll just imagine that I'm driving home, and I'll be there.

 

This is ****ing awesome!!!

 

 

(BTW, in the 2 minutes it took me to write up that post I just won the Masters.)

 

I know right, relating a single arm movement to the dynamic motion of the golf swing is comparing apples to apples right? 

 

I am calling BS!!! on that one :doh:

post #43 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

 

(BTW, in the 2 minutes it took me to write up that post I just won the Masters.)

That cracked me up!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

I know right, relating a single arm movement to the dynamic motion of the golf swing is comparing apples to apples right? 

 

I am calling BS!!! on that one :doh:

I don't think it's total BS. I do see a lot of benefit to visualization and whatnot, clearly it isn't enough on its own but coupled with real life practice it can be beneficial.

post #44 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

That cracked me up!

 

I don't think it's total BS. I do see a lot of benefit to visualization and whatnot, clearly it isn't enough on its own but coupled with real life practice it can be beneficial.

 

 

Well I was talking about more to the fact that they think it can think just sitting around and meditating on their golf game will make them able to hit the golf ball better. Even I visualize my golf shots, that is important, but not what I think the guy was taking the study as it was pertaining to. 

post #45 of 57

saevel25, what exactly are you calling BS?  The story? Look it up, I'm sure you can find it. Or the fact I stated? surely you wouldn't be ignorant enough to call a fact BS. Or maybe you're just trying to illustrate how courteous and polite a guy with nearly 6000 posts and FORUM LEADER under his name can be. Keep up the good work!

post #46 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

saevel25, what exactly are you calling BS?  The story? Look it up, I'm sure you can find it. Or the fact I stated? surely you wouldn't be ignorant enough to call a fact BS. Or maybe you're just trying to illustrate how courteous and polite a guy with nearly 6000 posts and FORUM LEADER under his name can be. Keep up the good work!

Before this turns into a flame war, how would you use the technique in your post to improve your game, and how many strokes do you think you could drop?
post #47 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

saevel25, what exactly are you calling BS?  The story? Look it up, I'm sure you can find it. Or the fact I stated? surely you wouldn't be ignorant enough to call a fact BS. Or maybe you're just trying to illustrate how courteous and polite a guy with nearly 6000 posts and FORUM LEADER under his name can be. Keep up the good work!

 

I am calling it BS because you are taking a study done that involves throwing darts. Does it prove that the mind can improve ability, yes, but it is still throwing darts. It isn't the complex dynamic movement of the golf swing. You just can not sit on a couch and think about a golf swing and expect to do it. It doesn't work like that. 

 

Also the story only says he hits the board, not the accuracy of his hit. Does he get any near the bulls eye. What is his dispersion pattern. All it says is that he hit a dart board. I mean, what level of competence are you asking here?

 

Is visualizing important, yes. Every body visualizes, but the action of visualization is trivial to actual hands on practice. 

post #48 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post


Also the story only says he hits the board, not the accuracy of his hit. Does he get any near the bulls eye. What is his dispersion pattern. All it says is that he hit a dart board. I mean, what level of competence are you asking here?

Not only that, but what did his "visualization" entail? Is he just throwing darts in his minds eye, or is he thinking, trying to figure out what he was doing wrong and how to improve it. Maybe he's thinking about how different throwing a dart lefty feels, and how he could make it feel more like throwing righty.

You'd imagine that anyone would be better lefty their second go-around, if only because now they know what throwing a dart left-handed feels like. He also could have made adjustments, like throwing slower and not moving his arm as much.

I'd be surprised if they did the study again with the same guy and had him visualize for another week and he got much better, if any.
post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

I am calling it BS because you are taking a study done that involves throwing darts. Does it prove that the mind can improve ability, yes, but it is still throwing darts. It isn't the complex dynamic movement of the golf swing. You just can not sit on a couch and think about a golf swing and expect to do it. It doesn't work like that. 

 

Also the story only says he hits the board, not the accuracy of his hit. Does he get any near the bulls eye. What is his dispersion pattern. All it says is that he hit a dart board. I mean, what level of competence are you asking here?

 

Is visualizing important, yes. Every body visualizes, but the action of visualization is trivial to actual hands on practice. 

Now we're getting somewhere. You're opening paragraph says it all, you are so focussed on your swing mechanics, that you overlook the actual task, playing golf- hitting the ball to a specific goal. You just said it- sit on the couch and think about your swing. The swing is not the task. Maybe you should try sitting on your couch and visualise nice little soft draws, starting out 5 yds right of the pin, reaching the apex of the ballflight, turning over gracefully before descending with the slightest hint of right to left, landing 5ft right of the flag, taking a small bounce forward, before spinning back and to the left and into the hole.

 

saevel25, you're right, everybody visualises. Is it that hard a concept to grasp that the better the golfer, the better the visualisation?

post #50 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

saevel25, you're right, everybody visualises. Is it that hard a concept to grasp that the better the golfer, the better the visualisation?

Of course not.  But of all of the stuff that goes into producing a great golf shot, the amount that is attributable to that visualization is quite small.  I would bet that I could compete quite well with Tiger Woods when it comes to simply visualizing good shots.  That is not where he and I differ.

post #51 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Of course not.  But of all of the stuff that goes into producing a great golf shot, the amount that is attributable to that visualization is quite small.  I would bet that I could compete quite well with Tiger Woods when it comes to simply visualizing good shots.  That is not where he and I differ.

Ok, let's see. Describe the best shot you ever hit.

post #52 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

Ok, let's see. Describe the best shot you ever hit.

 

Par 3, down hill, pitch wedge. I visualized a push draw, were the ball starts over the tee marker in front of me, takes my standard shot height and draws in towards the pin. 

 

The ball ends up 1 foot away from the pin, the ball landed 3 inches from the hole, and checked at 1 foot. 

 

I was able to do this because I already knew I could hit a push draw, because I practiced it. I didn't sit around visualizing a golf swing that produces a push draw. I physically did it. 

 

Here's the kicker, I've visualized shots the same way, and don't get the same result. I have to physically do the action. I just can't visualize my way to the end result. 

post #53 of 57
I visualize shooting big bucks all the time while I sit in my deer stand. Alas, I don't believe it has helped.
post #54 of 57

@saevel25. And that's the point...you've just described the best shot you ever hit in 2 lines of boring description. Take me inside your head, when I read your description, I want to be there, I want to see the shot, I want to feel the thrill, the expectation as the ball flies through the air, I want to feel the purity of the strike, the balance in the swing, the tension as your playing partners look on in anticipation, I want to feel the strength in your core and body through impact, I want to see your starting point, your intermediate point and your landing point, I want to hear the sound of the ball, the spin jizz after impact, I want to feel the sense of height looking down at the green, the feel of the turf beneath your feet, I want to feel the extended holding of the follow through, the admiration of such a beautiful shot, I want to feel you enter the "zone" during your pre-shot routine, I want to feel your eyes hardening as the outside world goes silent as you immerse yourself into the shot, I want you to describe what your pre-vis shot looks like, the time it spends climbing, peaking and descending, I want to feel the wind over your left shoulder, the texture of your grip etc

 

If your visualisation skills are as good as you think they are, you would have no problem conveying to the reader a far more elaborate and descriptive description of the best shot you ever hit.

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