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Would golf instruction be better if...

Poll Results: Would golf instruction be better off if tour pros never talked about the swing and what they think/feel they are doing?

 
  • 59% (19)
    Yes
  • 40% (13)
    No
32 Total Votes  
post #1 of 46
Thread Starter 

Yesterday while we were playing at the Sand Trap SoCal Outing, our group was talking and came up with the following question:

 

Would golf instruction be better off if tour pros never talked about the swing and what they think/feel they are doing?

post #2 of 46

Golf instruction would be better if you could remove the students brain and replace it with a tour pros brain!!!!! My current experiments have not gone well, holding the tour pro down whilst removing his brain is the tricky part.

post #3 of 46
In totality, probably. But think of how far magazine sales would drop!
post #4 of 46

I voted no.   My reasoning is based on my experiences trying to simultaneously help my wife (39 at the time and back in college) and my daughter (12 and in junior high) learn algebra.   The two of them needed very different methods to learn the same things and those methods were much different still from the way I learned.   Even though it is said here all the time that "feel isn't real", feel is in fact a part of how a student learns this game (not telling you anything you don't already know).   So, what some pro says he feels may very well "click" with a particular  student in a way that allows them to achieve whatever goal they are working on.   The key is probably to make sure that when what they think "clicked" didn't actually achieve the desired results, that they don't remain hung up on that feel because some pro said it..

post #5 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamroper60 View Post

So, what some pro says he feels may very well "click" with a particular  student in a way that allows them to achieve whatever goal they are working on.   The key is probably to make sure that when what they think "clicked" didn't actually achieve the desired results, that they don't remain hung up on that feel because some pro said it..

That's almost exactly why I voted yes.

Too many times golfers seem to put faith in what a pro "says he does" (i.e. that pro's "feels") instead of looking at what he actually does.

Feel ain't real yes… but that's doubly true when it is someone else's feel.
post #6 of 46

I voted yes but it wasn't an easy call. There is nothing wrong with listening to the "feels" of different players, and especially the best players, but it also requires enough sense to know that what they feel isn't always what happens or may not be the best thing to try to copy.

 

No doubt it would be frustrating for an instructor to have a student come back for another lesson and find that progress had been thrown out the window because of what either a Tour player or another instructor said. Or one of the ridiculous things they read in a magazine or heard on TV.

 

I'm leery of cookie cutter instruction anyway but even worse is using different cookie cutters that aren't always compatible.  

 

Many people are trying to do things beyond their physical capabilities just because a pro does it that way.

post #7 of 46

I voted no, only because the problem of feel/real is not only a problem with touring pros. The pros who are actually teaching also have the problem of not understanding this. Many lessons I have been to the pro was having a feel that was working for him and he tried to get me to have the same feel. So I say no, the problem is with the teaching pros not the touring pros.

post #8 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post
 

I voted no, only because the problem of feel/real is not only a problem with touring pros. The pros who are actually teaching also have the problem of not understanding this. Many lessons I have been to the pro was having a feel that was working for him and he tried to get me to have the same feel. So I say no, the problem is with the teaching pros not the touring pros.

No doubt that poor teaching pros are also an issue. However, I think many amateurs put a lot of stock into what a tour pro says he does simply because of how well they play and as many of us know what they say they are doing and what they are actually doing are two different things.

post #9 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post
 

I voted no, only because the problem of feel/real is not only a problem with touring pros. The pros who are actually teaching also have the problem of not understanding this. Many lessons I have been to the pro was having a feel that was working for him and he tried to get me to have the same feel. So I say no, the problem is with the teaching pros not the touring pros.

 

That's the wrong way to look at this question. The question is not whether teaching pros doing it hurts as well, it's simply whether golf instruction as a whole would be better if PGA Tour players didn't communicate their thoughts or feels about what they think/feel they do in their golf swings.

 

Eating too many fats is bad for you, but you'd not vote "no" because eating too much salt is also bad for you.

post #10 of 46

I voted yes because of the variety of information given by Tour players.  There is a lot of conflicting information and too many suggestions.  It really can confuse the average golfer and they end up trying everything.

post #11 of 46
Subjective and will vary person to person. I don't listen to what tour pros say about their swings. Has no influence on me.
post #12 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

It's simply whether golf instruction as a whole would be better if PGA Tour players didn't communicate their thoughts or feels about what they think/feel they do in their golf swings.

 

 

As Dave2512 said, this is subjective.  Better for who?  Better for the student?  Again, I think that depends on the individual and how they learn best.   Better for the teacher?  No doubt, as you would no longer have to deal with a differing point of view.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post
 

However, I think many amateurs put a lot of stock into what a tour pro says he does simply because of how well they play and as many of us know what they say they are doing and what they are actually doing are two different things.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


Too many times golfers seem to put faith in what a pro "says he does" (i.e. that pro's "feels") instead of looking at what he actually does.

It is human nature that when you want to improve, you seek out those who are better than you and try to learn from them.  Tour pros are held up as "the gold standard".  On this very site, their swings and stats are used almost all the time to make points or demonstrate something.   So of course people are going to put faith in what they say.    I am sure it makes your job as an instructor infinitely more difficult but I also think the horse is already out of the barn on this one and it's running with it's nose in the wind.

post #13 of 46
I voted no. Good teachers look for the way to instruct their students and that varies from student to student. Good students look for things to listen to that compliments what they need to know, or what they can understand. If you don't understand it, or it's nothing like what you do, don't listen. But it might help someone else. Just don't count on it meaning something to you.
post #14 of 46
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamroper60 View Post
 

 

As Dave2512 said, this is subjective.  Better for who?  Better for the student?  Again, I think that depends on the individual and how they learn best.   Better for the teacher?  No doubt, as you would no longer have to deal with a differing point of view.  

 

It is human nature that when you want to improve, you seek out those who are better than you and try to learn from them.  Tour pros are held up as "the gold standard".  On this very site, their swings and stats are used almost all the time to make points or demonstrate something.   So of course people are going to put faith in what they say.    I am sure it makes your job as an instructor infinitely more difficult but I also think the horse is already out of the barn on this one and it's running with it's nose in the wind.

The reason that pro's swings are often used for comparison is because they have the best swings out there. Using a program like Analyzr you can see exactly what they are actually doing; however, often times the pros themselves don't have a clue what they are doing and/or feel like they are doing something that they aren't. The problem is when they say I do XYZ when they don't and people assume that they do.

post #15 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post

The reason that pro's swings are often used for comparison is because they have the best swings out there. Using a program like Analyzr you can see exactly what they are actually doing; however, often times the pros themselves don't have a clue what they are doing and/or feel like they are doing something that they aren't. The problem is when they say I do XYZ when they don't and people assume that they do.
Perfect example is freedrop on pitching. ( sorry freedrop)
post #16 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by tristanhilton85 View Post
 

The reason that pro's swings are often used for comparison is because they have the best swings out there. Using a program like Analyzr you can see exactly what they are actually doing; however, often times the pros themselves don't have a clue what they are doing and/or feel like they are doing something that they aren't. The problem is when they say I do XYZ when they don't and people assume that they do.

 

I understand why instructors would use the pro's swings as a visual aid.   But once you hold the pros out there as the epitome of a good golf swing, the very real other side of that sword is that you are virtually (albeit unitentionally) inviting students to listen to what those pros have to say about their swings.

 

So again, I think the responses to your question is going to be dependent upon the skill level of the student and may also be influenced by whether they view the question from the perspective of an instructor or from the perspective of a pupil.

post #17 of 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

That's the wrong way to look at this question. The question is not whether teaching pros doing it hurts as well, it's simply whether golf instruction as a whole would be better if PGA Tour players didn't communicate their thoughts or feels about what they think/feel they do in their golf swings.

Eating too many fats is bad for you, but you'd not vote "no" because eating too much salt is also bad for you.

I see. I was viewing the question as do you think the biggest problem in golf instruction is touring pro giving their feels.

Thinking some more about it some touring pros have become decent teachers Grant Waite and Mac O'Grady come to mind. But you could argue that their advice was not as valuable until after they finished touring.

The other thought I have on this, is that I have heard decent instruction from touring pros regarding the short game, particularly putting. So for the full swing I am in agreement but for the short game I don't totally agree.
post #18 of 46

IMHO, part of the problem with tips from playing pros is that there is an acceptance of the universality, one size fits all, panacea quality of tips. When a pro gives a tip, people take it more seriously because he's successful, but to me, there's also some feeling of this tip applies to all to it. Wouldn't you say a corollary of subject header would be, there are no universal fixes. There's a fix for your swing, not vice-versa - all swings will be fixed by this tip. You do want to do what the pro is suggesting, but the way there for you is probably not the fix the pro is suggesting.

 

Another corollary is - the road to golf hell is paved with good intentions. Those segments/articles I believe for the most part are sincerely meant to help people. Or were they? Mu ha ha ha ha...

 

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