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Tiger Woods Master Catch-All Thread (Was Injury Thread) - Page 2

post #19 of 615

I really don't get the people who think he just withdrew because he was playing poorly. This isn't an ingrown toenail or ruptured blister (both of which are painful and difficult to play through), this is something that could result in permanent damage if he were to continue playing. For a golfer, a bad back is a death sentence to a career. There are a lot of injuries you can play through as a golfer (like a blown knee, just ask Tiger), but a bad lower back is not one of them. I have absolutely no problem with the WD, and I likely would have done the same. 

post #20 of 615
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geauxforbroke View Post
 

I really don't get the people who think he just withdrew because he was playing poorly. This isn't an ingrown toenail or ruptured blister (both of which are painful and difficult to play through), this is something that could result in permanent damage if he were to continue playing. For a golfer, a bad back is a death sentence to a career. There are a lot of injuries you can play through as a golfer (like a blown knee, just ask Tiger), but a bad lower back is not one of them. I have absolutely no problem with the WD, and I likely would have done the same. 


I agree. Male idiot mentality is to work through pain. I can tell you this, at some point that doesn't work and the back can become much more of a problem. He felt it wasn't worth forcing it this week and sees the bigger picture. If it was Jim Renner, who withdrew and couple of weeks back...there was nothing said. You can not blame him for not finishing for this reason. It's some sort of golf chivalry that he owes us a going down with the ship type scenario is demanded by the spectators. Like whipping the horse until it's dead because you can't feel it's pain.

post #21 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

There were several reports of his exaggerated stretching routines that were very much out of the ordinary for him. Several said he was in clear discomfort even before he teed off on his first hole.


Hear say and ineuendo. None of these so called witnesses or casual fans were quoted or ever said anything on camera. Is it possible maybe, Jimenz stretches on the range on the range too.  Even his playing partner did not say he saw anything.

I am confident all players do some stretching, there was nothing reported the day after on the morning drive indication any pain he was experiencing and they covered the story like JFK just got shot.

 

Hearsay and innuendo from people right on the spot is irrelevant, but you know better because you saw no signs of it on TV?  Come on.  As Erik said, he did much more back specific stretching than he normally does.  That would seem to be an indication that he was concerned about it.  

 

I'm going through a bout right now, and I can walk so you couldn't tell a thing, but I couldn't swing a club if you paid me.  The fact that you can't see it on TV means nothing.  

post #22 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post

This shows your data in a slightly different light, regardless of tweets and opinion. I Still feel he withdrew ( quit) at very least by the convenience of a spasmatic back or none at all.
That's my opinion and others.


Let's look at the percentage of withdrawals by 20 notable players as garnered from Golf Digest. I've ranked them from best to worst.

1. Billy Haas: 0 withdrawn in 246 tournaments - % = 0.00
2. Tom Watson: 1 out of 612 = 0.16%
3. Steward Cink: 1 out of 465 = 0.21%
4. Adam Scott: 1 out of 218 = 0.46%
5. Steve Stricker: 2 out of 430 = 0.47%

6. Ernie Els: 2 out of 366 = .0.55%
7. Matt Kuchar: 2 out of 306 = 0.65%
8. Zach Johnson: 2 out of 269 = 0.74%
9. Phil Mickelson: 4 out of 492 = 0.81%
10. Fred Couples: 6 out of 607 = 0.99%

11. Jack Nicklaus: 7 out of 595 (6 came after the age of 38) = 1.17%
12. Davis Love: 9 out of 687 = 1.31%
13. VJ Singh: 7 out of 529 = 1.32%
14. Nick Faldo: 4 out of 302 = 1.32%
15. Rory McIlroy: 1 out of 73 = 1.37%

16. Tiger Woods: 6 out of 297 = 2.02%

Woods isn't even close.

 

Not even close? Two fewer withdraws and he would have been in the middle of the cherry-picked stack.  Two out of 297 seems pretty close to me.

post #23 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfisher View Post

This shows your data in a slightly different light, regardless of tweets and opinion. I Still feel he withdrew ( quit) at very least by the convenience of a spasmatic back or none at all.
That's my opinion and others.


Let's look at the percentage of withdrawals by 20 notable players as garnered from Golf Digest. I've ranked them from best to worst.

1. Billy Haas: 0 withdrawn in 246 tournaments - % = 0.00
2. Tom Watson: 1 out of 612 = 0.16%
3. Steward Cink: 1 out of 465 = 0.21%
4. Adam Scott: 1 out of 218 = 0.46%
5. Steve Stricker: 2 out of 430 = 0.47%

6. Ernie Els: 2 out of 366 = .0.55%
7. Matt Kuchar: 2 out of 306 = 0.65%
8. Zach Johnson: 2 out of 269 = 0.74%
9. Phil Mickelson: 4 out of 492 = 0.81%
10. Fred Couples: 6 out of 607 = 0.99%

11. Jack Nicklaus: 7 out of 595 (6 came after the age of 38) = 1.17%
12. Davis Love: 9 out of 687 = 1.31%
13. VJ Singh: 7 out of 529 = 1.32%
14. Nick Faldo: 4 out of 302 = 1.32%
15. Rory McIlroy: 1 out of 73 = 1.37%

16. Tiger Woods: 6 out of 297 = 2.02%

Woods isn't even close.


I respect those numbers, "Woods isn't even close" is a reach though.  Of the tournament totals you listed for players, how many did those golfers play all four rounds without missing the cut?   If Tiger played bad enough to miss the cut last week he wouldn't have had to withdraw and we wouldn't be talking about a WD, just a missed cut which happens all the time to normal players.  Those players that miss the cut aren't interviewed after the round all the time to ask why they didn't make it, and if they are it doesn't get the media attention that Tiger would.  My point was that Tiger is no more guilty of taking a WD than any other golfer and his numbers compared to some reputable greats are not bad or abnormal.  There are some extremely notable names that I listed and some surprising figures when you look at the numbers.

post #24 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP golf View Post
 


I respect those numbers, "Woods isn't even close" is a reach though.  Of the tournament totals you listed for players, how many did those golfers play all four rounds without missing the cut?   If Tiger played bad enough to miss the cut last week he wouldn't have had to withdraw and we wouldn't be talking about a WD, just a missed cut which happens all the time to normal players.  Those players that miss the cut aren't interviewed after the round all the time to ask why they didn't make it, and if they are it doesn't get the media attention that Tiger would.  My point was that Tiger is no more guilty of taking a WD than any other golfer and his numbers compared to some reputable greats are not bad or abnormal.  There are some extremely notable names that I listed and some surprising figures when you look at the numbers.

 

This is a pretty good point.  First off, those numbers are stupid.  When your sample range is 20 cherry-picked numbers between zero and 6, the statistics can show anything and will always say nothing.  But, if we're going off of these numbers, what's the percentage of complete events for these players?  Tiger has missed 8 or 9 cuts in his career and withdrawn 6 times in 300 events.  Half of those occurrences have been in the last 3 years.  That means his "complete event" percentage is around 95%, and 4 years ago it was probably above 97%.  

 

Conclusion (which is in no way logically or statistically valid):  Tiger has completed a higher percentage of events than anyone in the history of the game.  Tiger is a machine.

post #25 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by k-troop View Post
 

 

This is a pretty good point.  First off, those numbers are stupid.  When your sample range is 20 cherry-picked numbers between zero and 6, the statistics can show anything and will always say nothing.  But, if we're going off of these numbers, what's the percentage of complete events for these players?  Tiger has missed 8 or 9 cuts in his career and withdrawn 6 times in 300 events.  Half of those occurrences have been in the last 3 years.  That means his "complete event" percentage is around 95%, and 4 years ago it was probably above 97%.  

 

Conclusion (which is in no way logically or statistically valid):  Tiger has completed a higher percentage of events than anyone in the history of the game.  Tiger is a machine.

But the gears are worn, and the mileage has taken its toll. He can't just squirt on some oil and grease and say "that's better, I'm good to go again".

 

 I wish Tiger the best, but I think its going to be a rough year for him, he is a approaching that age were stuff starts to show up, and healing takes more time, he's not going to be able to push through it week after week, if he does his game will suffer. That's the reality. I agree with an earlier comment that he may need some time off to get back to normal, or what can me considered normal for an supreme athlete approaching 40yo. He may win more majors, but he's on the other side now, and endurance management takes on a new meaning and requires different skills than when he was 20 or 30 yo.

post #26 of 615

I am certainly not a Tiger fan but I don't believe he withdrew because of his poor play.  I do believe him, in this case, that his back was bothering him. how much did it affect him?  I don't know but if there was any chance of it getting worse as a result of finishing the round I don't blame him for withdrawing.  I watched Tiger play on what in effect was a broken leg and he certainly at one time could play through pain.  But a back problem is more difficult and it wasn't the US Open so I find it difficult to condemn him for the WD.  Would he have withdrew if he was in contention?  Who knows?  I doubt it as he wants to be in shape for the Masters and I suspect he is trying to ensure that is the case.

post #27 of 615

@Snowfly  I agree he isn't blowing out the field like he did from 98-01', but winning 5 events last year (out of 16) proves that he is still one of the top golfer on Tour... consider this, Phil never won 5 PGA events in any single season in his career.  Phil also won a major last year (at 43 I think), he is also getting older.  I do think Tiger is trying to take steps to reduce the wear and tear on his body.  He has reworked his swing is playing less event in the last 5 years or so. 

 

Tiger finishes in the top 10 in PGA tournaments 62% (185 of 297) of the time... Thats unmatched-   Perspective Phil Mickelson(171 of 474) 36% of the time.. - His numbers are amazing when you actual get down and look at them and fairly compare them to other golfers this era or any other era even.

 

Honestly, I didn't used to be a Tiger fan, until I got down and looked at the numbers while everyone is talking about his troubles... and I was surprised at how good the guy is...  Still! 

 

@Spitfisher You are right, it's not even close:

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP golf View Post
 

A little perspective on "quitting or not finishing a tournament"  - Does Tiger face a different set of expectations and standards?

 

I pulled these from www.pgatour.com career stats from the players profiles...

 

Career WD:
6 - Tiger Woods (9 MISSED CUTS) 79 Wins
7 - Jack Nicklaus
23 - Arnold Palmer
17 - Lee Travino
20 - Johnny Miller
29 - Mark Calcavecchia
19 - Sam Snead
14 - Gary McCord
19 - Lanny Watkins
15 - Mark O' Meara
11 - Fuzzy Zoeller
10 - Greg Norman
10 - David Duval
9 - Ben Crenshaw
12 - Curtis Strange
8 - Fred Couples
9 - Davis Love III
4 - Phil Mickelson

 

EDIT:  Adding Spitfisher's numbers: 

6 - Tiger Woods (9 MISSED CUTS) 79 Wins  I'd put your percentages back in there but that's too much work and would only prove that it's not close (and favors Tiger).

 

0 - Billy Haas: (75 missed cuts since 2005) 5 career wins... Yep comparable to Tiger
1 -  Tom Watson (over 100 missed cuts)
1 - Steward Cink (99 missed cuts) 6 Career wins
1 - Adam Scott (43 missed cuts) 10 wins
2 - Steve Stricker (107 missed cuts) 12 Career Wins

2 - Ernie Els: (50 missed cuts) 19 wins
2 - Matt Kuchar: (98 missed cuts) 6 wins
2 - Zach Johnson: (46 missed cuts) 11 wins
4 - Phil Mickelson: (Over 70 missed cuts) 42 wins (PS, he never had 5 PGA wins in a season - Tiger did last year - but he's washed up?)

 

I don't have time to look up the rest on the list...  I have a tee time today lol...

 

post #28 of 615
@JP Golf, I agree Tiger's statistics are record breaking, and undesputable. But also his record is a testament to what it takes to win 18 majors, an equally amazing statistic. All statistics are part of the greatness equation, and major wins is the hallmark.

I do believe Tiger can/will/is attempting to attain that hallmark as well by the changes you have mentioned.
post #29 of 615

@Snowfly, I agree with you.  I'd like to see Tiger get 18, but I'm not sure if he will.  That is one hell of an accomplishment for sure!  I just hope he wins the US open this year...  (I'll be somewhere near 18 on that Sunday!)  Either way, it's not a matter of if he is one of the greatest.. when it's all said and done the questions will be "is he the greatest that played?" -as of now, it seems everyone thinks it hinges on if he catches Jack's majors. 

post #30 of 615
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP golf View Post
 

@Snowfly, I agree with you.  I'd like to see Tiger get 18, but I'm not sure if he will.  That is one hell of an accomplishment for sure!  I just hope he wins the US open this year...  (I'll be somewhere near 18 on that Sunday!)  Either way, it's not a matter of if he is one of the greatest.. when it's all said and done the questions will be "is he the greatest that played?" -as of now, it seems everyone thinks it hinges on if he catches Jack's majors

I couldn't disagree more with the bold part.  Theres no way anyone could ever convince me that the number 18 out ways everything else Tiger has done in his career.  At 38 IMO he's already ahead of Jack even with the 4 less majors.  

post #31 of 615

@Jakester23 I agree, I think 18 is an uphill battle though, but I 100% think he is the greatest golfer to play IMO, nobody has been as dominant or completely changed the game the way that Tiger has...  Like I said, I am more of a Tiger fan after his on course struggles and criticism.  I think he is unfairly held to different standards and more media scrutiny than any other player on Tour.  His numbers hold up to anyone... People can criticize him as a person and his character (I understand that), but his golf game and career numbers are insanely good.

post #32 of 615
So the clear injury today means that the people who doubted last week's were wrong, correct?
post #33 of 615
Thread Starter 

Yea Tiger was visibly uncomfortable. I don't think you fake that face. He is going to have to take some time to heal from this.

post #34 of 615

So he was hurting in October. It's almost April and he's still hurting. This shows all the therapy and the rest in the world is not healing this back. This is kinda worrisome if you're Tiger......this is an ongoing issue that doesn't seem to be getting better anytime soon.

post #35 of 615

I hope he is able to get it together.  It's surely not a good sign.  Fred Couples had back problems for years and it held him back a ton. 

post #36 of 615

Tiger needs to take some time off, as in, at least a couple of months, and get with his PT and put in the work to help him sort his back issues out. Taking a week or 2 off isn't gonna help. I really want to see him come back in good health and give the young uns a run for their money.

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