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Malaysian Airlines Flight Missing, Presumed Crashed - Page 9

post #145 of 165
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 

 

One plane crash out thousands of flights does not get the chance to be investigated? Don't you think we already do a ton of checks and balances? So we find that it is human error? Can we control that? If this was the third time this had happened, I would say lets get to the bottom of this but we already are hurting financially and if we join the effort .... I just don't see the point except to appease human sentiment.


Because having someone to blame will make things all better?

I agree with you guys, I just think it's easier to have this viewpoint when you're not personally involved.

 

I have had similar experience with my father but having a person to blame or his body next to me didn't make things better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

 

 

 

From wikipedia's article on the 777:

 

Quote:
 

The type's first hull-loss occurred on January 17, 2008, when British Airways Flight 38, a 777-200ER with Rolls-Royce Trent 895 engines flying from Beijing to London, crash-landed approximately 1,000 feet (300 m) short of Heathrow Airport's runway 27L and slid onto the runway's threshold. There were 47 injuries and no fatalities. The impact damaged the landing gear, wing roots and engines. The aircraft was written off.[216][217] Upon investigation, the accident was blamed on ice crystals from the fuel system clogging the fuel-oil heat exchanger (FOHE).[210] In 2009, air accident investigators called for a redesign of this component on the Trent 800 series engine.[218] Redesigned fuel oil heat exchangers were installed in British Airways' 777s by October 2009.[219]

Two other minor momentary losses of thrust with Trent 895 engines occurred in February and November 2008.[220][221] TheNational Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) investigators concluded that, just as on BA38, the loss of power was caused by ice in the fuel clogging the fuel-oil heat exchanger. As a result, the heat exchanger was redesigned.[210]

 

So each time they've found a problem and prevented it from happening again.  There is definitely value in that.

 

 

So you've got (1) the emotional value for the families; (2) preventing future loss; (3) the possibility of finding criminals involved in a nefarious plot associated with this; and (4) the value of feeling safe when you fly because of the insane thoroughness of the safety regulations.  I'm not saying that no cost is too great, but there is a lot of value in finding the wreckage.  

 

#4 there is pretty big IMO.  The odds of surviving a plane crash are slim.  People fly because crashes are so rare.  Because its safer to fly than take any other form of transportation.  The industry, and all industries that rely on the industry, need to protect that. There's a big value in that.  

 

And yes, I did a complete 180 on this.  

 

1. Who says finding this is a guaranty to sooth their emotions? What if more people die diving for the plane?

2. Not a sure this is a good reason because of vast area and depth of wreckage.

3. If there are criminals, the proof is probably at sea level somewhere. Which already the only questionable guys are the stolen passport men and the pilot with the simulator. Plus if this is terrorist activity why haven't there been any groups trying to take responsibility.

4. So you would not get on a plane now? There is always a possibility that a plane could crash or train derail etc...

 

Reasonable efforts have already been made and some unreasonably due to misinformation. I am saying again, just because we can't investigate "one" plane crash, doesn't mean that our air travel is unsafe.

 

Human interest seems to be the true driving factor. If that is worth billions then go for it. I just don't see the need. Maybe they should sell the rights to discovery and they make a show called "Crashfinders" and enlist teams to race to find the plane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
post #146 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post

 

I have had similar experience with my father but having a person to blame or his body next to me didn't make things better.

 

1. Who says finding this is a guaranty to sooth their emotions? What if more people die diving for the plane?

2. Not a sure this is a good reason because of vast area and depth of wreckage.

3. If there are criminals, the proof is probably at sea level somewhere. Which already the only questionable guys are the stolen passport men and the pilot with the simulator. Plus if this is terrorist activity why haven't there been any groups trying to take responsibility.

4. So you would not get on a plane now? There is always a possibility that a plane could crash or train derail etc...

 

Reasonable efforts have already been made and some unreasonably due to misinformation. I am saying again, just because we can't investigate "one" plane crash, doesn't mean that our air travel is unsafe.

 

Human interest seems to be the true driving factor. If that is worth billions then go for it. I just don't see the need. Maybe they should sell the rights to discovery and they make a show called "Crashfinders" and enlist teams to race to find the plane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The main thing is we don't know the cause, and we would not know how to prevent such an incident again. Was it possibly due to the Lithium batteries taking out the entire instrument bay? Was there faulty wiring?

 

So many unknown, we should really spend the time to check it to insure that this exact incident does not happen again.

 

It's a bit better than twiddling our thumbs awaiting another incident like this before taking any action.

 

The above and good PR for the airline that they "care" about their passengers, and we're not just potential lost "baggage" to them.

post #147 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post

 

I have had similar experience with my father but having a person to blame or his body next to me didn't make things better.

 

1. Who says finding this is a guaranty to sooth their emotions? What if more people die diving for the plane?

2. Not a sure this is a good reason because of vast area and depth of wreckage.

3. If there are criminals, the proof is probably at sea level somewhere. Which already the only questionable guys are the stolen passport men and the pilot with the simulator. Plus if this is terrorist activity why haven't there been any groups trying to take responsibility.

4. So you would not get on a plane now? There is always a possibility that a plane could crash or train derail etc...

 

Reasonable efforts have already been made and some unreasonably due to misinformation. I am saying again, just because we can't investigate "one" plane crash, doesn't mean that our air travel is unsafe.

 

Human interest seems to be the true driving factor. If that is worth billions then go for it. I just don't see the need. Maybe they should sell the rights to discovery and they make a show called "Crashfinders" and enlist teams to race to find the plane.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The main thing is we don't know the cause, and we would not know how to prevent such an incident again. Was it possibly due to the Lithium batteries taking out the entire instrument bay? Was there faulty wiring?

 

So many unknown, we should really spend the time to check it to insure that this exact incident does not happen again.

 

It's a bit better than twiddling our thumbs awaiting another incident like this before taking any action.

 

The above and good PR for the airline that they "care" about their passengers, and we're not just potential lost "baggage" to them.


I think sometimes you have to take your lumps and move on. If there is a good possibility of finding the plane, fine. If it is in 23,000 feet of water scattered about then maybe we wait.

post #148 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 
 
 

 

I have had similar experience with my father but having a person to blame or his body next to me didn't make things better.

 

1. Who says finding this is a guaranty to sooth their emotions? What if more people die diving for the plane?

2. Not a sure this is a good reason because of vast area and depth of wreckage.

3. If there are criminals, the proof is probably at sea level somewhere. Which already the only questionable guys are the stolen passport men and the pilot with the simulator. Plus if this is terrorist activity why haven't there been any groups trying to take responsibility.

4. So you would not get on a plane now? There is always a possibility that a plane could crash or train derail etc...

 

Reasonable efforts have already been made and some unreasonably due to misinformation. I am saying again, just because we can't investigate "one" plane crash, doesn't mean that our air travel is unsafe.

 

Human interest seems to be the true driving factor. If that is worth billions then go for it. I just don't see the need. Maybe they should sell the rights to discovery and they make a show called "Crashfinders" and enlist teams to race to find the plane.

 

 

Yeah, none of those things are certain, but value doesn't require certainty.  Uncertainly should lower the price we're willing to pay, but it doesn't necessarily justify giving up.  

 

I could just as easily take everything you say to an absurd extreme to make you look silly, but I won't because that wouldn't make for interesting discussion.  

post #149 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post

 

Yeah, none of those things are certain, but value doesn't require certainty.  Uncertainly should lower the price we're willing to pay, but it doesn't necessarily justify giving up.  

 

I could just as easily take everything you say to an absurd extreme to make you look silly, but I won't because that wouldn't make for interesting discussion.  

 

Or would it make you look silly? Who should pay for all this? The Chinese government? That won't happen. Should Boeing? Flying is already expensive and they will just pass the costs along to the purchase price of fighter jets our government buys...

 

Safety is the only possible reason to continue the search but be realistic. Don't make it another war on terrorism.

post #150 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 

 

Or would it make you look silly?

 

Yes, you got me.  

post #151 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 

 

Or would it make you look silly? Who should pay for all this? The Chinese government? That won't happen. Should Boeing? Flying is already expensive and they will just pass the costs along to the purchase price of fighter jets our government buys...

 

Safety is the only possible reason to continue the search but be realistic. Don't make it another war on terrorism.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about this triggering something like that.

 

If it was a real act of terror, any of the countries involved are not as nice as the western countries. They would certainly do something very drastic about it, and not look hypocritical doing it.

 

Plus no one has claimed responsibility. Usually, someone would make a statement about so and so cause being the reason for the demise of so many people.

 

Also, an act of terror isn't that terrible if it involves fizzling an aircraft into the void in the middle of the night where no one can witness it happening.

 

It just does not seem to have any of the attributes for an act of terror.

post #152 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post
 

 

Or would it make you look silly? Who should pay for all this? The Chinese government? That won't happen. Should Boeing? Flying is already expensive and they will just pass the costs along to the purchase price of fighter jets our government buys...

 

Safety is the only possible reason to continue the search but be realistic. Don't make it another war on terrorism.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about this triggering something like that.

 

If it was a real act of terror, any of the countries involved are not as nice as the western countries. They would certainly do something very drastic about it, and not look hypocritical doing it.

 

Plus no one has claimed responsibility. Usually, someone would make a statement about so and so cause being the reason for the demise of so many people.

 

Also, an act of terror isn't that terrible if it involves fizzling an aircraft into the void in the middle of the night where no one can witness it happening.

 

It just does not seem to have any of the attributes for an act of terror.


I was referencing to having it a long drawn out, never ending scenario. Impossible to find for years.

post #153 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleygolfer View Post


I was referencing to having it a long drawn out, never ending scenario. Impossible to find for years.

Sure, I know that's what you mean, but up until two days ago many experts on the news still thought it was a very likely to have been an act of terror.

I just don't happen to agree with them.
post #154 of 165

They also seem to have narrowed down the area.  I read this morning that they found a spot with a hundred pieces of debris.  I think they've got another 2 weeks of the black box pinging, so they should at least keep looking until that goes out.

post #155 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil McGleno View Post

WHy should we spend billions of dollars to find parts of a plane and probably not even recover bodies?-Or even if we do recover parts of bodies what does that add? The plane is gone and the passengers are all dead.-Why spend the money?

What will change?-Just playing devils avocate.

 

Perhaps knowing the real reason would ensure the law suit ending up (quite) right? http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-malaysianairlines-boeing-lawsuit-idUSBREA2P0PP20140326

post #156 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 

 

Perhaps knowing the real reason would ensure the law suit ending up (quite) right? http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/26/us-malaysianairlines-boeing-lawsuit-idUSBREA2P0PP20140326


This is a bit sooner than I expected.

post #157 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post


This is a bit sooner than I expected.
Agreed. They hafta know who to sue and under what grounds!

Things I've thought recently on the coverage:

1.Les Abend looks like Lumbergh from Office Space
2. Captain Obvious commercials for hotels.com have potential to be as good as Most Interesting Man in the World commercials but they're gonna need to up their game
3. Lotsa people on cnn say "pinger" like "finger". I say it like "singer" or "Paul Azinger"
4. I'm a bit surprised this isn't a pilot-initiated incident. Sources close to the FBI investigation are leaking there's nothing sinister on the pilots' hard drives.

For this to be a fault with the plane, we hafta believe that the timing was perfect- just after leaving Malaysia ATC. We hafta believe the fault caused loss of all communications but left enough running to fly the plane. The plane is engineered with such incredible redundancy that would be unlikely. And electronics are needed to keep the plane flying because the plane needs to draw fuel from different tanks, sensing the balance of the plane and making adjustments- all that requires electronics. So only some electronics failed. We hafta believe the pilots were incapacitated at some point as they tried to descend quickly, but the fault was such that it incapacitated them and not enough to disable the plane for flying many more hours. We also hafta believe the direction of the plane after the pilots lost their struggle was randomly toward the deepest waters resulting in a difficult search.

I'm just not sure I can swallow all of that, but I will if it gets pieced together. I'd have thought a diabolical action by a pilot required fewer logical leaps.

If the report regarding the FBI finding nothing sinister with the pilots is true, we hafta lean toward a fault with the plane, correct?
post #158 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallT View Post

Agreed. They hafta know who to sue and under what grounds!

Things I've thought recently on the coverage:

1.Les Abend looks like Lumbergh from Office Space
2. Captain Obvious commercials for hotels.com have potential to be as good as Most Interesting Man in the World commercials but they're gonna need to up their game
3. Lotsa people on cnn say "pinger" like "finger". I say it like "singer" or "Paul Azinger"
4. I'm a bit surprised this isn't a pilot-initiated incident. Sources close to the FBI investigation are leaking there's nothing sinister on the pilots' hard drives.

For this to be a fault with the plane, we hafta believe that the timing was perfect- just after leaving Malaysia ATC. We hafta believe the fault caused loss of all communications but left enough running to fly the plane. The plane is engineered with such incredible redundancy that would be unlikely. And electronics are needed to keep the plane flying because the plane needs to draw fuel from different tanks, sensing the balance of the plane and making adjustments- all that requires electronics. So only some electronics failed. We hafta believe the pilots were incapacitated at some point as they tried to descend quickly, but the fault was such that it incapacitated them and not enough to disable the plane for flying many more hours. We also hafta believe the direction of the plane after the pilots lost their struggle was randomly toward the deepest waters resulting in a difficult search.

I'm just not sure I can swallow all of that, but I will if it gets pieced together. I'd have thought a diabolical action by a pilot required fewer logical leaps.

If the report regarding the FBI finding nothing sinister with the pilots is true, we hafta lean toward a fault with the plane, correct?

The planes redundancy system is not quite as sophisticated as you describe. I agree that there is a lot of redundancy like separate instrument bays and hydraulic systems, but not quite as you described. Fly by wire is a little less reliable than the old system, kind of like all the electronics in a new car versus the old carburator cars. The two "network" systems called ARINC 629 could potentially fail even if a fire hit one of the instrument bays the wrong way.

So, did someone mention if they were carrying a substantial shipment of Lithium batteries?
post #159 of 165
Yes I believe the CEO of Malaysian Airlines confirmed there was a pallet of lithium batteries. I believe I'm correct in saying that's not info from an anonymous source like the FBI info regarding the pilot analysis.

Whether it's plane failure or deliberate human action, I suppose we take solace that it's incredibly rare. I hope we make some concrete progress relatively soon.
post #160 of 165
All I can say is that the southern Indian Ocean must be a garbage pile. a2_wink.gif

They keep the TV here at work on CNN and every time I have walked by in the last two weeks they are reporting that more stuff is seen floating on the ocean.

I would hate to go barefoot water skiing down there.
post #161 of 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 


This is a bit sooner than I expected.

Well, given all the ads on TV with lawyers suing for this and that, read ...lawyers jumping on the band wagon to make a buck (ntatwwt) but you know it would happen sooner or later. Early bird gets the worm in this case.

post #162 of 165

It drives me batty. They initially cried wolf on the debris weeks ago. [Rhetorical]Why do people keep watching this stuff? [Rhetorical] After the first couple of times, you'd figure common sense would go something like, well, I'll tune in when the headline says something like "Wing/Engine part/plane part 100% correlated to 370 found". CNN, Certainly Not News.

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