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Ball plugged in the rough

post #1 of 69
Thread Starter 

I'm posting to check if my understanding of the rules is correct because my playing partner today disagreed. The situation was as such:

 

The player tops a drive off the tee and finds his ball in shaggy foot rough. The conditions are wet. Player makes a swing at his ball and tops it again to such a degree that he pushes the ball downwards into the ground about 4 inches. The ball is clearly unplayable. His opinion was that he is entitled to free relief because the ball is in it's own pitch mark. Firstly, i would argue it's not a pitch mark as the ball didn't leave the ground but thats irrelevant. I told him that under rule 25-2 he was not entitled to free relief and his ball was not in "closely mown grass" and such would have to declare his ball unplayable and produce under rule 28. 

 

Was i correct with my understanding of the rules? Thanks in advacne

post #2 of 69

25-2 is only available on "closely mown area", unless there is a local rule which expands it to "through the green".

 

As you say the conditions were wet, if after digging up the ball there is water in the pitch mark, then he could use 25-1 to get a free relief from casual water.

post #3 of 69

And just to confirm the other issue.

 

25-2/6

Ball on Steep Bank Driven Straight into Ground

 

Q. A player's ball lies on a steep bank in the fairway. He plays a stroke and drives the ball straight into the bank, i.e., the ball is never airborne. Is the player entitled to relief without penalty under Rule 25-2?

 

A .No. Under Rule 25-2, relief is provided if a ball is embedded in its own pitch-mark. The word "pitch-mark" implies that the ball has become airborne.

post #4 of 69
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the replies and follow up to my secondary question.

post #5 of 69

......and the player in question should take up tennis.   :-D

post #6 of 69
Thread Starter 
Haha yes, just half the top spin he had in those two shots and he s have a pretty mean forehand!
post #7 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by luu5 View Post
 

25-2 is only available on "closely mown area", unless there is a local rule which expands it to "through the green".

 

As you say the conditions were wet, if after digging up the ball there is water in the pitch mark, then he could use 25-1 to get a free relief from casual water.

 

If that ball was clearly unplayable it might be questionable to grant relief. But we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

post #8 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

If that ball was clearly unplayable it might be questionable to grant relief. But we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

 

Perhaps you could explain your comment further, even include a Rule or Decision reference?

 

 

post #9 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

If that ball was clearly unplayable it might be questionable to grant relief. But we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

 

 

Perhaps you could explain your comment further, even include a Rule or Decision reference?

 

 

 

 

The only Rule the player might invoke for a free relief is 25-1b(i) (casual water). Exception to that Rule says:

 

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference
by anything other than an abnormal ground condition makes the stroke clearly
impracticable...

 

 

So, if that ball is so deep in the ground that it is impracticable to make a stroke at it there is no free relief under 25-1b(i).

post #10 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogolf View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

If that ball was clearly unplayable it might be questionable to grant relief. But we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

 

 

Perhaps you could explain your comment further, even include a Rule or Decision reference?

 

 

 

 

The only Rule the player might invoke for a free relief is 25-1b(i) (casual water). Exception to that Rule says:

 

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference
by anything other than an abnormal ground condition makes the stroke clearly
impracticable...

 

 

So, if that ball is so deep in the ground that it is impracticable to make a stroke at it there is no free relief under 25-1b(i).

 

Do you suggest that an embedded ball in an area of casual water is ineligible for relief under Rule 25?

post #11 of 69
Yes, you are right. However, since the conditions were very wet, the club MAY have had a local rule saying that there is free relief for an embedded ball ANYWHERE through the green.
post #12 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

 

The only Rule the player might invoke for a free relief is 25-1b(i) (casual water). Exception to that Rule says:

 

Exception: A player may not take relief under this Rule if (a) interference
by anything other than an abnormal ground condition makes the stroke clearly
impracticable...

 

 

So, if that ball is so deep in the ground that it is impracticable to make a stroke at it there is no free relief under 25-1b(i).

 

So, if your ball goes into casual water - quite possibly deeply embedded - and is not found, you can take relief but if it is visibly embedded, you can't?

post #13 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
 

 

So, if your ball goes into casual water - quite possibly deeply embedded - and is not found, you can take relief but if it is visibly embedded, you can't?

 

Wouldn't it be the same if your ball is lost in a puddle of CW, or found there between two rocks and impossible to make a stroke at? Isn't that what the Exception is all about? You tell me.

 

Besides, the original question was about hitting one's ball into the ground and only after that to examine whether there is CW under the ball. IMO quite different situation than what you presented.

post #14 of 69

The Exception is about interference by anything that would make a stroke impracticable.  I don't see the ground as something which is causing interference.  A couple of rocks with the ball between them could be interfering with a stroke.

post #15 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinL View Post
 

The Exception is about interference by anything that would make a stroke impracticable.  I don't see the ground as something which is causing interference.  A couple of rocks with the ball between them could be interfering with a stroke.

 

Maybe you are right. But then again...  if you consider the basic principle of getting a free relief from CW it is because of the water. Should you drive your ball into the ground you are in trouble. Is getting a free relief because of some water under the ball in line with that principle?

post #16 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post

Maybe you are right. But then again...  if you consider the basic principle of getting a free relief from CW it is because of the water. Should you drive your ball into the ground you are in trouble. Is getting a free relief because of some water under the ball in line with that principle?

Why do you think the ball in question plugged in the first place...?
post #17 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post


Why do you think the ball in question plugged in the first place...?

 

That is why I said we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

 

Also bear in mind that mud is not CW but a ball plugs deep in mud quite easily. Same thing with soft sand (eg. in wastelands).

post #18 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignorant View Post
 

 

That is why I said we would have to see the situation in order to be certain.

 

Also bear in mind that mud is not CW but a ball plugs deep in mud quite easily. Same thing with soft sand (eg. in wastelands).

Perhaps you should take a look at Decision 25/3

 

Q.A player's ball plugged deeply in short rough. No casual water was visible on the surface, but the pitch-mark in which the ball came to rest was filled with water. Was the player's ball in casual water?

A.Yes.

There is no suggestion  here that the fact that the ball is deeply plugged would result in relief not being allowed.  Its just not an issue.

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