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2014 FIFA World Cup Thread - Page 43

post #757 of 1211

"Football is a game with 22 players on the field and a ball that you have to put into the opposite goal and at the end of the game Germany wins".

 

We have a variant of the same theme, albeit we insert a penalty shootout into the description, followed by Germany winning.

 

We suspect they've got a secret underground bunker somewhere buried in the Black Forest where they systematically work out the weight of and height of each player and then some complicated algorithm that dictates what velocity, trajectory, and angle to the plain they need to strike the ball at. Then they compute all this information into their android players and send them out to perform like Audis

 

The first penalty shootout I remember was from the 1976 European Championship final when West Germany lost to Czechoslovakia. I think I'm right in saying they've never missed a penalty since? They were introduced to the World Cup in 1982, but we had to wait until 1990 and the semi final against .... yes ... them! ... they who can not be named, before seeing if we were any good at them. We secretly fancied our chances. In Peter Shilton we had a goalkeeper widely regarded as being amongst the best three in the world, if not, then the best. We also had a group of players who were regular penalty takers for their clubs. Stuart Pearce was the first to miss, and Chris Waddle followed. Germany went onto win the competition (deservedly I suppose) albeit I remain confident we'd have beaten the suspension ravaged dirty Argies in the final

 

Since then England have racked up a seriously impressive sequence of penalty shootout failures

 

Six years later and back on home turf in the semi final of the European Championship, the golden goal didn't come to our rescue as we came within inches of beating, they who can not be named again. Ultimately it went to a penalty shoot out. This time a couple of England's self styled hard men (loud mouths with bigger opinions of their own ability then their actions warrant) went missing - didn't they Paul Ince? Instead lesser players with more balls came forward, and missed. No one really holds Gareth Southgate responsible, but tend to ask what he was doing being asked to take one at that stage. I've got a feeling that England had capable substitutes available to them as well, who could have been used in the last minute

 

1998 this time and the World Cups last 16. David Beckham got himself sent off for a petulent little ankle flick whilst lying on the ground, which brought the inevitable over reaction from the dirty Argentinians as Simone went to ground as if shot by an RPG. England clung on for well over an hour, and even had a perfectly good goal chalked off by a blind referee from Denmark (Kim Nielsen). This time when we went to penalties it was the turn of David Batty to join the list. Later Batty would reveal it was the first penalty he'd ever taken! a true testimony to English planning if ever there was one, and something that doesn't compare favourably with the German penalty takers factory in the Black Forest. I mean, how on earth do you get to the world cup with a nominated penalty taker who has never taken one before?

 

2004 European Championship quarter final. Having missed the year previous against Turkey, and also in the gorup stage against France, David Beckham steps up to take the opening spot kick and duly blasts it over the bar (the turf moved apparently). As we go into the sudden death element Darius Vassel joins the list of failures as Portugal join Argentina and Germany on the list of teams to have beaten England.

 

2006 next and a quarter final of the World Cup this time, against Portugal again. A bit of symmetry as the coniving Ronaldo succeeds in getting Rooney sent off and is caught winking to a team mate on camera after making a miraculous recovery from the injury that never was. England again hold on grimly and go to penalties. Now in terms of giving your goalkeeper no chance, England excelled themselves here. Frank Lampard scored, was made to retake it, and missed. Steven Gerrard missed, and so too did Jamie Garragher, sparking him to later say that "at least it was for England not for Liverpool". The club and country thing is a major issue in England, with the national teams interest frequently come a poor second to the tribes in the affections of players and supporters

 

In 2008 we took matters into our hands and duly elected not to qualify, and in 2010 played like drains in South Africa and so avoided the dignity of a penalty shoot out

 

2012 and it's the European quater final time again. This time our luck is in. Only the Italians have a record similar to our own of choking in the cauldron of penalties, so at stake here is the unofficial title of European feckless spot kick takers. We fancy our chances of beating the continents biggest cowards. All the jokes about the Italian flag being a white cross, on a white background, or one car backfires and all of Rome surrenders etc were in ever close attendance, as by now we knew we'd go to penalties. Sadly the joke was on England, as not for the first time we swooped the board and proved that when it came to missing penalties on the big stage, we were the kings. Italy won and became the fourth team to claim an English scalp on this method

post #758 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

All the talk about different ways to break ties, and I realized that I don't want to change anything.  I cannot deny that I loved watching the Brazil-Chile and Costa Rica-Greece endings.

 

It's not tie-breaking penalty kicks that I have a problem with ... it's regular foul-committed-inside-the-box-penalty-kicks that I despise.  They are just too ... for lack of a better word ... penal.  I like penalties to be strong enough to deter the illegal action, but penalty kicks are so severe that they frequently decide an entire game.  It's awful that I guy can commit a marginal foul 15 yards off to the side on a guy that isn't even advancing towards the goal with the ball and it becomes, virtually, an automatic goal.  The human error aspect is also huge; guys getting called for penalties that aren't is as egregious as it gets.

 

I'm trying to think of an equivalent and the closest I can come up with would be if (American) football had a rule that said if you committed a holding penalty anywhere within the 10 yard line, then the opposing team gets a chance to score from the 1 yard line ... and if they do score, they get 20 points.  Or instead of 2 shots and the ball for an intentional foul, they gave 30 shots and the ball.

 

I feel like penalty kicks (for fouls) should be done away with altogether and replaced with:

 

  • A standard free kick.  Perhaps let them choose their own spot (like in billiards) or just put them at the top of the box or something.
  • Leave the rule the same, but make the penalty box considerably smaller, or the kick spot back at 18 yards instead of 12.
  • Punish the fouler with an automatic yellow (if that isn't severe enough, an automatic red), and then just give them an indirect kick on the spot.

 

I feel like one of those (or maybe a combo) has to be penal enough to deter guys from fouling at will ... and it puts the punishment considerably more in line with the crime.

 

That said ... I love soccer and can't wait for tomorrow afternoon!!! :beer:

 

 

I think there's a few issues which need context.

 

The leading free throw conversions would be a shade over 90%, whereas successful penalty kicks are about 80% which drops to about 70% in world cups for some reason (Englands participation?). Clearly it wasn't enough to prevent poor old Ghana failing in 2010 when Uruguay's finest Corinthian deliberately handled a ball to prevent a goal, took the sending off, and got on the right side of the 30%. Talking of Corinthians, that reminds of an old English club (still exists today) whose goalkeeper is expected to step aside if a penalty is awarded against them and present an open goal to the taker by way of a show of remorse. I believe it's an old Victorian tradition that they still observe

 

My big fear with diluting the impact of the penalty is that football is already a niggly little game as it is. If the sanction was reduced we'd have players scything each other down the moment they got a half yard advantage.

 

You could argue that the rewards are so high though that it contributes towards feigning a foul, as it acts as an incentive. I think most people would have some sympathy for that view

 

I also wonder if you haven't touched on something however to do with what I'll call 'award zones' (my own invention). There are clearly parts of a penalty area where the prospect of scoring is different to other parts. Indeed, the basic geometry of the marked area hasn't changed for centuries. Should the area be extended out as the number of goals scored from longer range shots has increased? Is the whole shape wrong even? Would an Isoceles Trapezium not be a better shape?

post #759 of 1211

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarawayFairways View Post
 

 

 

I think there's a few issues which need context.

 

The leading free throw conversions would be a shade over 90%, whereas successful penalty kicks are about 80% which drops to about 70% in world cups for some reason (Englands participation?). Clearly it wasn't enough to prevent poor old Ghana failing in 2010 when Uruguay's finest Corinthian deliberately handled a ball to prevent a goal, took the sending off, and got on the right side of the 30%. Talking of Corinthians, that reminds of an old English club (still exists today) whose goalkeeper is expected to step aside if a penalty is awarded against them and present an open goal to the taker by way of a show of remorse. I believe it's an old Victorian tradition that they still observe

 

My big fear with diluting the impact of the penalty is that football is already a niggly little game as it is. If the sanction was reduced we'd have players scything each other down the moment they got a half yard advantage.

 

You could argue that the rewards are so high though that it contributes towards feigning a foul, as it acts as an incentive. I think most people would have some sympathy for that view

 

I also wonder if you haven't touched on something however to do with what I'll call 'award zones' (my own invention). There are clearly parts of a penalty area where the prospect of scoring is different to other parts. Indeed, the basic geometry of the marked area hasn't changed for centuries. Should the area be extended out as the number of goals scored from longer range shots has increased? Is the whole shape wrong even? Would an Isoceles Trapezium not be a better shape?


Maybe a hockey-style short- and long-corner? Foul within 6-yard box - short corner equivalent, foul within 18-yard box but outside 6-yard, long corner equivalent? Two penalty spots, one at 12 and the other at 18 yards?

 

On the subject of diving (or "flopping" as I'm led to believe it is on the other side of the Pond), I do so wish they'd simply introduce retrospective video evidence. Wouldn't stop the actual award of dubious free-kicks and penalties but, especially at a tournament like this, it might severely penalise those cheating scum after the event. I'd like to sit on the retrospective panels that looked at the evidence too please!

post #760 of 1211
We played terrible yesterday. The German team from 1990 is unforgotten - I can still remember the semi final against England. That was a great match. And the match against Holland 1990. Germany is far away from that level...
post #761 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reval14 View Post

We played terrible yesterday. The German team from 1990 is unforgotten - I can still remember the semi final against England. That was a great match. And the match against Holland 1990. Germany is far away from that level...

I don't know what you are talking about. I don;t even think the year 1990 ever existed ;)

 

1990 was a complete failure of the Dutch team. We still had the big three from AC (Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard (I bet you remember Rijkaard, I remember Völler ;) ) but the complete team spirit was away. It was the team that won EC 88 and our hopes were high. Between 88 and 90 a lot happened staffing wise for the team and it lead to a complete disaster. Some players still refuse to talk about it.


Edited by yrew - 7/1/14 at 8:13am
post #762 of 1211
W
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrew View Post

Nice read. I like those posts.
I don't know what you are talking about. I don;t even think the year 1990 ever existed ;)
Well, the year 1974 existed too.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_FIFA_World_Cup_Final
But that was before my time.
post #763 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reval14 View Post

W
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrew View Post

Nice read. I like those posts.
I don't know what you are talking about. I don;t even think the year 1990 ever existed ;)
Well, the year 1974 existed too.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_FIFA_World_Cup_Final
But that was before my time.

 

Wait.. is there always a Muller on Germany's team??

post #764 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

 

Wait.. is there always a Muller on Germany's team??

 

Look at FarawayFairways's post about that hidden bunker........

post #765 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reval14 View Post

W
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrew View Post

Nice read. I like those posts.
I don't know what you are talking about. I don;t even think the year 1990 ever existed ;)
Well, the year 1974 existed too.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_FIFA_World_Cup_Final
But that was before my time.

 

Wait.. is there always a Muller on Germany's team??

Quote:
Originally Posted by yrew View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

 

Wait.. is there always a Muller on Germany's team??

 

Look at FarawayFairways's post about that hidden bunker........

 

 

yes yes.. I already read that.. now it all makes sense.. they just produce these machines, and then every 4 years they are upgraded.. This years Muller must be a v.12 or something depending on when they started manufacturing them.

 

It was just amazing yesterday at how the Algerians were sucking wind, and the Germans seemed to just keep going.. 

post #766 of 1211
It's not Muller - it's Müller.
post #767 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by yrew View Post


1990 was a complete failure of the Dutch team. We still had the big three from AC (Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard (I bet you remember Rijkaard, I remember Völler ;) ) but the complete team spirit was away. It was the team that won EC 88 and our hopes were high. Between 88 and 90 a lot happened staffing wise for the team and it lead to a complete disaster. Some players still refuse to talk about it.

I remember a lot of dutch players...
I always admired your team for your offensive way to play. Like the last 30 min against Mexico.
post #768 of 1211

In the Netherlands we are comparing our current team with the German team from the 80's and 90's. We do not play the most beautifull/ attacking football we ever played but at least we are winning. The German team really made a huge change in gameplay style. A style I like more, it is fun to watch and as long as yo have great players you can play like that.

 

The Dutch team has only a few really good players and a lot of mediocre players. We cannot win against any attacking team when we are attacking as well. Our defence is our weak point and we need some extra defenders to keep things closed back there. Luckily we have some excellent strikers that are blazingly fast so we can play some reaction football. the only reason we were able to attack in the last 30 minutes of the game against Mexico was because the Mexicans started defending instead of keep on attacking.

post #769 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reval14 View Post

It's not Muller - it's Müller.

 

same thing... :whistle:

post #770 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post
 

 

same thing... :whistle:

The don;t fool us anymore.

post #771 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abu3baid View Post

same thing... e2_whistling.gif
U and Ü are pronounced different.
post #772 of 1211

But an English keyboard doesn't have the option, so we'll have to stick to calling him Gerd/ Dieter/ Tomas, Miller (delete as applicable)

 

The Dutch would have won in 1974 had they not organised some swimming pool orgy whilst the Germans were having their 9000 mile service, air filters replaced, and oil change completed during the midweek. The only time they were the best team was 1990, which might actually be the most significant world cup in history, as it was the explosion in English interest that resulted from beating Belgium and Cameroon that persuaded Rupert Murdoch to stick up the money that led to the creation of the Premiership. It's probably fair to say that the footballing landscape has never been the same since as the Premiership's influence expanded (not for the better imo)

 

Spare a tiny thought for Scotland though, they're the real victims of the Premiership. 

 

As regards this world cup, it reminds me a bit of 2002 with a lot of fancied teams being eliminated and no stand out. I'm not sure we've seen anyone stick two consecutive good games together yet.

 

This really could come down to the team that is prepared to seize the moment and believe

post #773 of 1211
Quote:
Originally Posted by FarawayFairways View Post

But an English keyboard doesn't have the option, so we'll have to stick to calling him Gerd/ Dieter/ Tomas, Miller (delete

Finding the "Ü" on the keyboard:
http://www.kruess.com/laboratory/blog/finding-the-ue-on-your-keyboard/

b2_tongue.gif
post #774 of 1211

Nope, doesn't work for me

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