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Ball lands on the fringe of a parallel hole, what do I do? - Page 2

post #19 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

In my post I was not suggesting that anyone could waive a rule of golf.  Instituting an authorized local rule as allowed by Rule 33-8 or Appendix I is not a breach of 1-3.  Making up one's own rules would be a possible breach.

 

I suppose the issue is can a foursome act like a competition committee (and absent a competition, a normal golf or green committee) in instituting certain local rules that are discretionary under Appendix 1. For casual golf, I like your thinking. A foursome is its own competition and should be able to impose its own local rules. That said, in anything more formal, for a foursome to assume such a role is disregarding the definition and authority of the "committee" (even if know no one knows who they are). That's where I think you run into Rule 1-3.

post #20 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post
 

 

I suppose the issue is can a foursome act like a competition committee (and absent a competition, a normal golf or green committee) in instituting certain local rules that are discretionary under Appendix 1. For casual golf, I like your thinking. A foursome is its own competition and should be able to impose its own local rules. That said, in anything more formal, for a foursome to assume such a role is disregarding the definition and authority of the "committee" (even if know no one knows who they are). That's where I think you run into Rule 1-3.

 

Fourputt isn't talking about a formal competition where a committee is in place, but rather casual play in which no other committee is established.  In that case the group acts as it's own committee and has the same authority and responsibilities as any other committee.

post #21 of 34

JoePete:

 

The USGA has stated to me via email that in the absence of a committee, a single golfer or group of golfers can act in that capacity for their own play.  The golfer or group can't waive a Rule of Golf but the player or group can designate areas as GUR, declare a bunker filled with water as out of play or adopt Local Rules as listed in the R of G, all things typically done by a "committee."

 

Pretty much no course in SE Michigan on which I have played lists on the score card or posts in the clubhouse the Local Rule allowing the use of distance measuring devices.  Everyone with one of those devices, myself included, acts as the committee and adopts that Local Rule, except when playing a formal competition where the competition committee does not adopt that Local Rule.

post #22 of 34
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

 

The golfer or group can't waive a Rule of Golf but the player or group can designate areas as GUR, declare a bunker filled with water as out of play or adopt Local Rules as listed in the R of G, all things typically done by a "committee."

I don't think a bunker with water can be declared "out of play." The USGA even has a FAQ on this:

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=102&Rule=25

 

To the question at hand, the USGA defines the committee as "The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course." It is not absent competition or a competition committee, the players are to use their own judgment. As I have said, I don't have issue that in a casual round, a group acts like its own competition committee, but it is a stretch of the rules. If you look at the full responsibilities of the "committee" it is clear that a foursome couldn't fill that role even for just themselves. But if you are talking a casual round of golf with no consequence, who cares?

post #23 of 34

In a casual round it seems kind of lame to me to take a full swing at a golf ball on the fringe of a neighboring green.  Just seems like acting as your own committee and taking a drop is preferable to being a stickler and taking a big divot out of the fringe for the rest of the golfers on the course to enjoy for at least a few days...

post #24 of 34

In a tournament?  play strictly by the rules

 

Posting for handicap?  play strictly by the rules

 

Playing for fun but there might be bets with friends?  get group concurrence to do whatever you like and score however you like - or tell them after the fact if you all play that way anyway - mock the jerkwad in the group that only wants people to follow the rules when it benefits him

 

Dinking around and having fun?  get off the fringe and count it any way you like.  perhaps play it out on that green and then take the approach shot on the original hole from off the fringe.  perhaps pick up the ball and do a little dance and order a bloody mary from the cart girl that was driving up that hole (the main reason to hit into another fairway).  I don't much care.

post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post
 

I don't think a bunker with water can be declared "out of play." The USGA even has a FAQ on this:

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=102&Rule=25

 

 

Certainly my words "out of play" won't be found in the Rules but there definitely is a procedure for designating one or more specific bunkers as GUR, which was the point I so poorly attempted to make.

 

 

33-8/27

 

"...However, in exceptional circumstances, where certain specific bunkers are completely flooded and there is no reasonable likelihood of the bunkers drying up during the round, the Committee may introduce a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers. Prior to introducing such a Local Rule, the Committee must be convinced that such exceptional circumstances exist and that providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers is more appropriate than simply applying Rule 25-1b(ii). If the Committee elects to introduce a Local Rule, the following wording is suggested: "The flooded bunker on [insert location of bunker; e.g., left of 5th green] is ground under repair. If a player's ball lies in that bunker or if that bunker interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing and the player wishes to take relief, he must take relief outside the bunker, without penalty, in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i). All other bunkers on the course, regardless of whether they contain water, maintain their status as hazards and the Rules apply accordingly."

post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

In a casual round it seems kind of lame to me to take a full swing at a golf ball on the fringe of a neighboring green.  Just seems like acting as your own committee and taking a drop is preferable to being a stickler and taking a big divot out of the fringe for the rest of the golfers on the course to enjoy for at least a few days...

 

Course preservation and Rules compliance needn't be mutually exclusive. Rule 28 gives the player a perfectly good way to do both.

post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

 

The golfer or group can't waive a Rule of Golf but the player or group can designate areas as GUR, declare a bunker filled with water as out of play or adopt Local Rules as listed in the R of G, all things typically done by a "committee."

I don't think a bunker with water can be declared "out of play." The USGA even has a FAQ on this:

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=102&Rule=25

 

To the question at hand, the USGA defines the committee as "The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course." It is not absent competition or a competition committee, the players are to use their own judgment. As I have said, I don't have issue that in a casual round, a group acts like its own competition committee, but it is a stretch of the rules. If you look at the full responsibilities of the "committee" it is clear that a foursome couldn't fill that role even for just themselves. But if you are talking a casual round of golf with no consequence, who cares?

 

Look, you can argue it all you want, but I got the answer straight from one of the two instructors at a four day USGA/PGA Rules workshop.  I asked the question because it's one of those things which comes up so often in discussions like this.  Most players never compete in formal competitions, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't matter to them, or that they should have to put up with conditions during their weekly money game which would require the actions of a tournament committee in a more formal setting.  Just because they play at a daily fee course where things like local rules and proper course marking are haphazardly applied, they still need to be able to continue play when faced with an issue which the normal rules don't quite cover.  I was also told that such scores would also be acceptable for handicap purposes.

 

So many casual players aren't that worried about the niceties of properly invoking a local rule, or for the matter for carefully following any rules much beyond "Hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball."  They reinvent the game every round just on a whim.   I will applaud anyone who has enough concern for playing golf to even consider making an effort to do it right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

In a casual round it seems kind of lame to me to take a full swing at a golf ball on the fringe of a neighboring green.  Just seems like acting as your own committee and taking a drop is preferable to being a stickler and taking a big divot out of the fringe for the rest of the golfers on the course to enjoy for at least a few days...

 

Course preservation and Rules compliance needn't be mutually exclusive. Rule 28 gives the player a perfectly good way to do both.

 

And end up with a penalty in the process.  You are really hung up on that aren't you?  I'm usually the one being slammed for being overly penal on this forum.  

 

In a case where the local rule should be in place but isn't, why is it so hard for you to accept that the course should be protected.  I'm not talking about the hole where the player sliced his drive 2 holes away and landed on the fringe of green where nobody ever hit to before.  I'm answering the OP who said that this is a common occurrence and in such a case it should be addressed by a properly constituted committee.  Lacking that, the player should do what his conscience dictates.  I'm betting you would curse a blue streak if you came up to your ball on the fringe of a green and found it 4 inches off the putting surface and lying in a 1/2 inch deep divot. 

post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkuehn1952 View Post

 

The golfer or group can't waive a Rule of Golf but the player or group can designate areas as GUR, declare a bunker filled with water as out of play or adopt Local Rules as listed in the R of G, all things typically done by a "committee."

I don't think a bunker with water can be declared "out of play." The USGA even has a FAQ on this:

https://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=102&Rule=25

 

To the question at hand, the USGA defines the committee as "The “Committee’’ is the committee in charge of the competition or, if the matter does not arise in a competition, the committee in charge of the course." It is not absent competition or a competition committee, the players are to use their own judgment. As I have said, I don't have issue that in a casual round, a group acts like its own competition committee, but it is a stretch of the rules. If you look at the full responsibilities of the "committee" it is clear that a foursome couldn't fill that role even for just themselves. But if you are talking a casual round of golf with no consequence, who cares?

 

Look, you can argue it all you want, but I got the answer straight from one of the two instructors at a four day USGA/PGA Rules workshop.  I asked the question because it's one of those things which comes up so often in discussions like this.  Most players never compete in formal competitions, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't matter to them, or that they should have to put up with conditions during their weekly money game which would require the actions of a tournament committee in a more formal setting.  Just because they play at a daily fee course where things like local rules and proper course marking are haphazardly applied, they still need to be able to continue play when faced with an issue which the normal rules don't quite cover.  I was also told that such scores would also be acceptable for handicap purposes.

 

So many casual players aren't that worried about the niceties of properly invoking a local rule, or for the matter for carefully following any rules much beyond "Hit the ball, find the ball, hit the ball."  They reinvent the game every round just on a whim.   I will applaud anyone who has enough concern for playing golf to even consider making an effort to do it right.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

In a casual round it seems kind of lame to me to take a full swing at a golf ball on the fringe of a neighboring green.  Just seems like acting as your own committee and taking a drop is preferable to being a stickler and taking a big divot out of the fringe for the rest of the golfers on the course to enjoy for at least a few days...

 

Course preservation and Rules compliance needn't be mutually exclusive. Rule 28 gives the player a perfectly good way to do both.

 

And end up with a penalty in the process.  You are really hung up on that aren't you?  I'm usually the one being slammed for being overly penal on this forum.  

 

In a case where the local rule should be in place but isn't, why is it so hard for you to accept that the course should be protected.  I'm not talking about the hole where the player sliced his drive 2 holes away and landed on the fringe of green where nobody ever hit to before.  I'm answering the OP who said that this is a common occurrence and in such a case it should be addressed by a properly constituted committee.  Lacking that, the player should do what his conscience dictates.  I'm betting you would curse a blue streak if you came up to your ball on the fringe of a green and found it 4 inches off the putting surface and lying in a 1/2 inch deep divot. 

 

I only speak for myself. I have no problem playing by the Rules in extant. In this case, I rather doubt that I would feel the need to suddenly constitute a Committee to absolve myself of the consequences of my poor execution of a stroke. I'm capable of replacing a divot or taking a drop under Rule 28. Now then, if someone else wished to go the one-man committee route that's just dandy by me, too.

post #29 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asheville View Post

 

I only speak for myself. I have no problem playing by the Rules in extant. In this case, I rather doubt that I would feel the need to suddenly constitute a Committee to absolve myself of the consequences of my poor execution of a stroke. I'm capable of replacing a divot or taking a drop under Rule 28. Now then, if someone else wished to go the one-man committee route that's just dandy by me, too.

 

Let me guess.  In casual rounds you call a ball in the fringe unplayable and take a penalty 0% of the time.  100% of the time you take a crater out of the fringe, sprinkle some grass and mud in the crater, and feel superior.

post #30 of 34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Look, you can argue it all you want, but I got the answer straight from one of the two instructors at a four day USGA/PGA Rules workshop. Most players never compete in formal competitions, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't matter to them, or that they should have to put up with conditions during their weekly money game which would require the actions of a tournament committee in a more formal setting.

If we have been arguing about something, I am not sure what it is. I agree, and have never suggested otherwise, that in a casual round of no consequence, a group having its own little competition can claim itself to be its own competition committee, and thus it is within a loose reading of the rules for them to make their own local rules. Like I have said, I like your reasoning on that. I do see the wheels coming off for that happy foursome from time to time. I can imagine a best ball match. One player lands on hardpan "Gee I think that should be ground under repair." You have an even number of players and sides and that probably leads to a deadlock. I suppose an aggrieved side could flip it around. "Too bad you are up against that fence, that is an integral part of the course." I think it is worth noting that one reason courses do not expand relief from the the wrong green to include fringe/apron is that often is very unfair. Relief from the wrong green is mandatory, and bear in mind it is nearest point of relief. So if I can't drop on the fringe, nearest point of relief may very well be in some heavy rough near a green that isn't even on the hole I am playing. Yikes.

 

But like I said, in a casual round, I have no issue with people wanting to be their own committee. However, I do think we do need to be careful in anything but the most casual of rounds. For example, match play, if on the tee the two competitors agree to a non-existent local rule (e.g. relief from the fringe of a green everyone hits), even if it is never used, they are both disqualified for agreeing to waive the rules. You could say "But the match was only the two of them, that seems a bit harsh." Maybe, but them's the rules.

post #31 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post

Let me guess.  In casual rounds you call a ball in the fringe unplayable and take a penalty 0% of the time.  100% of the time you take a crater out of the fringe, sprinkle some grass and mud in the crater, and feel superior.

I agree in concept with the concept, but I've got to weigh in on @Asheville's side here too....

....this can't happen once every other month on a course. There's really not going to be any kind of damage to the course from this particular situation if the rules are adhered to.
post #32 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post

Quote:
If we have been arguing about something, I am not sure what it is. I agree, and have never suggested otherwise, that in a casual round of no consequence, a group having its own little competition can claim itself to be its own competition committee, and thus it is within a loose reading of the rules for them to make their own local rules. Like I have said, I like your reasoning on that. I do see the wheels coming off for that happy foursome from time to time. I can imagine a best ball match. One player lands on hardpan "Gee I think that should be ground under repair." You have an even number of players and sides and that probably leads to a deadlock. I suppose an aggrieved side could flip it around. "Too bad you are up against that fence, that is an integral part of the course." I think it is worth noting that one reason courses do not expand relief from the the wrong green to include fringe/apron is that often is very unfair. Relief from the wrong green is mandatory, and bear in mind it is nearest point of relief. So if I can't drop on the fringe, nearest point of relief may very well be in some heavy rough near a green that isn't even on the hole I am playing. Yikes.

But like I said, in a casual round, I have no issue with people wanting to be their own committee. However, I do think we do need to be careful in anything but the most casual of rounds. For example, match play, if on the tee the two competitors agree to a non-existent local rule (e.g. relief from the fringe of a green everyone hits), even if it is never used, they are both disqualified for agreeing to waive the rules. You could say "But the match was only the two of them, that seems a bit harsh." Maybe, but them's the rules.

They would only be disqualified under Rule 1-3 (agreement to waive a Rule) if they knew what they were doing was a breach of the Rules (new wording added to several Decisions this year).
post #33 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoePete View Post
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

 

Look, you can argue it all you want, but I got the answer straight from one of the two instructors at a four day USGA/PGA Rules workshop. Most players never compete in formal competitions, but that doesn't mean that the rules don't matter to them, or that they should have to put up with conditions during their weekly money game which would require the actions of a tournament committee in a more formal setting.

If we have been arguing about something, I am not sure what it is. I agree, and have never suggested otherwise, that in a casual round of no consequence, a group having its own little competition can claim itself to be its own competition committee, and thus it is within a loose reading of the rules for them to make their own local rules. Like I have said, I like your reasoning on that. I do see the wheels coming off for that happy foursome from time to time. I can imagine a best ball match. One player lands on hardpan "Gee I think that should be ground under repair." You have an even number of players and sides and that probably leads to a deadlock. I suppose an aggrieved side could flip it around. "Too bad you are up against that fence, that is an integral part of the course." I think it is worth noting that one reason courses do not expand relief from the the wrong green to include fringe/apron is that often is very unfair. Relief from the wrong green is mandatory, and bear in mind it is nearest point of relief. So if I can't drop on the fringe, nearest point of relief may very well be in some heavy rough near a green that isn't even on the hole I am playing. Yikes.

 

But like I said, in a casual round, I have no issue with people wanting to be their own committee. However, I do think we do need to be careful in anything but the most casual of rounds. For example, match play, if on the tee the two competitors agree to a non-existent local rule (e.g. relief from the fringe of a green everyone hits), even if it is never used, they are both disqualified for agreeing to waive the rules. You could say "But the match was only the two of them, that seems a bit harsh." Maybe, but them's the rules.

 

But in a match, I can choose to ignore a breach by my opponent if I so choose.  In a case where neither player is sure of a rule, two players can decide on a course of action and the play stands whether it's right or wrong.  That is one of the real beauties of match play.  A match can be friendly, fair, and if the rules they play by aren't quite as written, nobody is hurt by it.

post #34 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post

But in a match, I can choose to ignore a breach by my opponent if I so choose.  In a case where neither player is sure of a rule, two players can decide on a course of action and the play stands whether it's right or wrong.  That is one of the real beauties of match play.  A match can be friendly, fair, and if the rules they play by aren't quite as written, nobody is hurt by it.

Yet another reason that I love match play!
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