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Define "Release"...... - Page 2

post #19 of 41

@Pave @vangator, If any pro rolled their wrist to hit a draw they would end up hitting more snap hooks and pull draws. Just like Mike said the face is pointing right of the target at impact, the path is what is causing the ball to impart draw spin(axis tilt)on the ball.

post #20 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

You release whn you swing your kids around? Wouldn't they hit the wall? :)

I used to be a baseball player. If I wanted to rip a ball down the 3rd baseline, I'd release my wrists and turn the bat over. Normally, I would not release my wrists and slap balls to right field. Kind of like a fade in golf. I hit for average that way.


BTW, I know a guy who rolls his wrists consciously. He's very good golfer. I never roll my wrists cosciously. I unhinge my wrists at the ball and follow thru down the line. I drive ther ball pretty well.
Haha, luckily my walls don't have any kid shaped dents in them yet!, but yeah I get what your saying, relaxing or "releasing" any tension in the wrists, (or tightness of grip for me, which I think we're saying the same thing) allowing the weight of the club/bat to create speed and good impact??
Not sure about the purposely rolling wrists over, I kind of think that happens automatically as your arms/wrists follow the path to target anyway, when I tried to purposely do it it caused the the club head to turn too quickly! But in general it is pretty hard to describe a feeling, people might describe the same feeling using different terms and thus it becomes even more confusing!
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

I absolutely believe there is a definition of release.

 

The problem is, as I see it, there's no one definition of release. You might have one, @Pave might have one, and I choose not to have one because it's never been beneficial.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

When you downswing, to get the clubhead to the ball from your lag, you have to release your cocked wrists.

 

That implies to me that you actively perform that action. I don't. It "happens" when the sequencing of the rest of the swing is correct.

 

And you're basically defining it as power accumulator #2. That's fine, it's your choice. But others have defined it differently.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

The first guy does a full release and follow thru to hit a draw. Wrists roll over. That's what I do. Rory also releases his wrists but "holds on" to the club to prevent it turning over to cause his fade. That's how I fade the ball.

 

The first guy hits a fade, and the second (Rory) hit a draw.

 

You absolutely do NOT need to roll the wrists to hit a draw, and in fact oftentimes rolling the wrists can send the path far enough left that you're likely to fade it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

I see where you're coming from, but feels are very real. It's more the students perception that's screwed up. "feel ain't real" is confusing.

 

I disagree. People know what "feel ain't real" means. It's easily documented by cameras, launch monitors, etc. Feel is very real to the person (which is why all teaching is feel, and why all people are "feel players"), but their feels often do not match up with reality.

 

You said their "perception" is screwed up… but their "perception" is what they feel. Hence, "perception is screwed up" is just another way of saying "feel ain't real."

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

There is a place for "release" in teaching, I've seen several swings on here that may benefit.

 

And I disagree. As long as your argument boils down to "I like it" then we won't have much to discuss.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

The videos are are little tricky, apparently the first guy hit a fade, clubface would have been open. The second one Rory hit a draw, clubface would have been closed with an in to out path, what makes the second one tricky is the body manipulation. He was try to hit it low. Hard shot and difficult to analyse.

 

Face left of target in the first, right of target in the second.

 

I don't know if it's too hard to analyze. If you line the shaft up later (i.e. have more "lag"), it tends to keep the path going outward longer while simultaneously preventing the face from "closing" prematurely. So Rory had three benefits in lining the shaft up later:

  1. Less delivered loft, ball went lower.
  2. Path kept going outward a bit more.
  3. Face stayed right-pointing longer.

 

I can hit some real low draws doing my pre-set drill. Same idea. Delivering almost "too much lag," added secondary axis tilt both helps to shallow impact and raise the handle, all of which keeps the path going out and the face more right-pointing.

 

So again my point remains: I don't think "release" has a definition. People would disagree that Rory had a "release" in that one, or "what body part" he used to "release" it, and so on. People are all over the map with what "release" is and "how" it happens and "what" it causes… so I just avoid the whole hot mess.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mchepp View Post

I too hate the phrase release, but if forced I would describe it as a sequence of power accumulators such as 4,1,2,5,3, not a single accumulator.

 

Ditto, if forced at gunpoint, I might describe it as that too. Of course, as you would likely agree @mchepp, Homer only considered the accumulators (and obviously not #5) in what he termed the "power package," so 4, 1, 2, 5, 3 also doesn't account for the power generated - the sequencing, etc. - from outside the power package. Like our hips, or knees, or even our core. It's just elbows downward for Homer's power package.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

I used to be a baseball player. If I wanted to rip a ball down the 3rd baseline, I'd release my wrists and turn the bat over. Normally, I would not release my wrists and slap balls to right field. Kind of like a fade in golf. I hit for average that way.

 

Golf isn't baseball. Unfortunately we have only a few degrees - not +/- 45° - in which to hit the ball. Also, a bat is round, the weight is back in a baseball swing, etc. Multi-sport comparisons fall apart pretty quickly.

post #22 of 41

IIRC, Nicklaus defined "release" as the point at which both arms are fully extended, ideally after the ball...which...at least is measurable.

 

I agree with @iacas, because it means very different things to different people, as demonstrated in this thread, it becomes kind of a useless word much like Shazaam.

post #23 of 41
You almost need to be specific about what release you are talking about. To me, release is releasing lag; or some instructors even say it's the face rotating.
post #24 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by vangator View Post

I used to be a baseball player. If I wanted to rip a ball down the 3rd baseline, I'd release my wrists and turn the bat over.

I doubt that very seriously if you were any good at all. You pushed the barrel further around and likely had your torso more open but you didn't "turn the bat over".

You still had palm up/palm down at impact like this one over the left field wall.

BTW. Feel ain't real in baseball either.

post #25 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark View Post

You almost need to be specific about what release you are talking about. To me, release is releasing lag; or some instructors even say it's the face rotating.

 

Regarding those two definitions, it's something every golfer does, the wrists are uncocking, the face is closing whether you consciously do it or not. Majority of slicers/faders release it better than anyone, face is well left at impact. Point is you don't need to roll the wrists to hit a draw, and in fact oftentimes rolling the wrists can send the path far enough left that the ball will curve right.

post #26 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

I've been reading this forum and I'm curious as to what you think the term "release" actually means.

 

This video explains release as it relates to putting....

 

post #27 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EverythingGolf View Post
 

@Pave @vangator, If any pro rolled their wrist to hit a draw they would end up hitting more snap hooks and pull draws.

 

I have no idea why you're directing this comment at me, I have not suggested anything about rolling wrists. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvmac View Post

Rory hits draws with the face aimed right of the target at impact, like most players that draw the ball.

 

Sorry, didn't think I needed to explain my terminology. Obviously I meant closed to the path.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post
 

IIRC, Nicklaus defined "release" as the point at which both arms are fully extended, ideally after the ball...which...at least is measurable.

 

I agree with @iacas, because it means very different things to different people, as demonstrated in this thread, it becomes kind of a useless word much like Shazaam.

 

@Ernest Jones, if I told you that you need to weaken your grip and work on completely releasing the club, would it help you or hinder you?

post #28 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post
 

 

Sorry, didn't think I needed to explain my terminology. Obviously I meant closed to the path.

 

 

Yes that's why we talk about face alignment as left or right and use closed or open in relation to path. Some think of the face being open or closed in relation to target, so wanted to clarify for anyone reading the thread.

post #29 of 41
The only way for me to release now a days is with Viagra. Good for those trying to achieve a "delay release " with plenty of lag
post #30 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

@Ernest Jones
, if I told you that you need to weaken your grip and work on completely releasing the club, would it help you or hinder you?

If he weakened the grip and tried to release, i am 99% sure he would hit a pull cut
post #31 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

I have no idea why you're directing this comment at me, I have not suggested anything about rolling wrists. 


Sorry, didn't think I needed to explain my terminology. Obviously I meant closed to the path.


@Ernest Jones
, if I told you that you need to weaken your grip and work on completely releasing the club, would it help you or hinder you?
At present it would hinder me as it's not my priority piece. Dave (instructor) was adamant that I don't go "fishing in other ponds". I have my piece to work on and that's that.

If anything my grip could "possibly" be stronger but I'm leaving it as is because I have a good backswing and don't want to disturb that. I'm very confident that an improved pivot will fix my pushes by itself.
post #32 of 41
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Jones View Post


At present it would hinder me as it's not my priority piece. Dave (instructor) was adamant that I don't go "fishing in other ponds". I have my piece to work on and that's that.

If anything my grip could "possibly" be stronger but I'm leaving it as is because I have a good backswing and don't want to disturb that. I'm very confident that an improved pivot will fix my pushes by itself.

Fair enough, please disregard my comments, my apologies.

post #33 of 41
@Pave Sorry, I saw what vangator said about rolling the wrists and added your name too.
post #34 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

Fair enough, please disregard my comments, my apologies.
No apologies necessary, this is a discussion board. I appreciate your comments but am currently committed to a particular change.

It's all good.

a1_smile.gif
post #35 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pave View Post

Fair enough, please disregard my comments, my apologies.

 



What is your point of view on "release"? Hell, I'll fish in any pond. Usually it's strictly catch and release but every now and then (especially in the winter) I catch one that I want to take home and cook. If it tastes bad I just throw it out.

Once in a long while I even catch one that I want to have mounted as a trophy. a2_wink.gif
post #36 of 41

So, after all this, now I'm wondering what is "release"?

 

I am starting to get a tiny bit of feel for a "double pendulum effect". Is the place where it seems to move the fastest the "release"?

 

Is the double pendulum the correct way of thinking about a swing?

 

What is it? And what do you feel when you are "releasing"?

 

Does it even make any sense to think of it this way?

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