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Con Artist Swing Coaches??? - Page 3

post #37 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

I don't agree with that, depending on what your definition of "go looking for clients" is. I consider myself a good instructor and I've certainly told people that I could help them.

 

The difference between me and a poor instructor is that then I do help them. :-)

 

 

They often simply choose the cheapest and/or most convenient. Who can blame them for that? They're new to the game - they don't know to go online to look. They just think a golf lesson is a golf lesson. It's unfortunate that they sometimes (often?) fall prey to lesser instructors, mostly because it may dampen their spirit for the game, but also because it often dampens their spirit for instruction. That hurts the good instructors too.

 

 

Hits the nail on the head there. A con artist knows he's conning someone. Most of these instructors - the bad ones - simply don't know that they're bad.

 

 

Maybe I should have added to the "go looking for clients" thing. I'm guessing that you, Dave, Mike, Dana, and other instructors don't walk around the range, putting greens just to look for potential customers, like maybe someone that isn't such  a good instructor might do. And, if you say to someone, I could help you with your swing, is much different than saying, hit a couple of balls for me, and then proceed to tell that person to do this or that with regards to their swing, and then try to sell that person a block of lessons. I hope this defines what I said a bit better.

 

And btw, I think most if not all of us here would consider you, Mike, Dave , Dana and those associated with TST to be good instructors..;-)

 

Re: new golfers, what you said makes sense, seems I over looked that part of the " getting started" process. I know when I started I spent the least amount of $$$ that I could, not knowing if I would stick with playing for any length of time, so I see your point there.

post #38 of 66

People are people. Some market themselves in a kind of "goofy" way, and others are more suave. Someone walking from person to person on a range trying to sell their coaching services is their kind of goofy way to make a business. They might actually be perfectly good coaches, it's just that the hard sell approach might turn off many people.

 

The main issue I had with spending $$$ was that there was no guarantee of improvement, you were just sold blocks of time like a set of 6 lessons for $300. You end up going to the lessons once a week even if you are not ready. Plus, traditional golf teaching has no metric for incremental improvements to your swing, which also adds to frustration.

 

There are also sometimes incompatibilities between the student and the teacher. It's not necessarily the coaches fault nor the students fault, but they see no progress together. If the coach was any good, he/she would mention this and recommend someone else.

 

So, I am still not convinced that they are "con-artist's", just that people do things. . .different.

post #39 of 66

I sorta have this thing about anyone, any profession selling "Blocks" of this or that. IMHO,if your good enough, people will come back to you for more lessons ect.

post #40 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer 4 View Post
 

I sorta have this thing about anyone, any profession selling "Blocks" of this or that. IMHO,if your good enough, people will come back to you for more lessons ect.


I agree with this. Asking for a guaranteed 5 more lessons just means that you can't be learning enough from the first 4. :-X

post #41 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post

I agree with this. Asking for a guaranteed 5 more lessons just means that you can't be learning enough from the first 4. f4_glare.gif

FWIW we sell lesson packages, and VERY strongly encourage them for all new students.

One difference is that the second lesson is short game and putting and we get to see how they're practicing their piece from the first lesson quickly at the start. The third lesson is often not for 4-8 weeks after the first. And the fourth is four months after the first sometimes. And they save some money of course.

We just had too many clients who would take one lesson, stop working, and then act like or assume "it stopped working" that, for their own good, we somewhat "insist" on the package. Plus they like to save per-cost and get a "whole-game" treatment.
post #42 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post


FWIW we sell lesson packages, and VERY strongly encourage them for all new students.

One difference is that the second lesson is short game and putting and we get to see how they're practicing their piece from the first lesson quickly at the start. The third lesson is often not for 4-8 weeks after the first. And the fourth is four months after the first sometimes. And they save some money of course.

We just had too many clients who would take one lesson, stop working, and then act like or assume "it stopped working" that, for their own good, we somewhat "insist" on the package. Plus they like to save per-cost and get a "whole-game" treatment.


Yes, but you only charge $39/month, which is very reasonable considering you let us start and stop the program. I know at my current level I could get a lot more out of it, but I still prefer live coaching with @mvmac and Dana then get the video reviews afterwards. Also, there is a measurable performance built into the system. You know what order of things to do and how "well" you do each one. This is very important for rapid improvement.

 

The other thing is that a high resolution slow-motion camera is really nice to have, and I am currently looking for a good affordable one. I also just finished my shaded hitting net which has a shelf for a camera and laptop computer.

 

I will be setup soon.

post #43 of 66

@RightEdge, welcome to the site, please make sure to multi-quote, learn about it here

 

 New to The Sand Trap? Little Things Members Expect and Ask of Fellow Members 

post #44 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

Yes, but you only charge $39/month

 

No, I charge $250 for four lessons. I'm not talking about evolvr.

 

It's "rich" for Erie, PA but as you read those lessons span months and my students get notably better.

 

And again, please, stick to the topic.

post #45 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammer 4 View Post
 

One thing I found out over the years is, good instructors don't go looking for clients, bad ones do. I've hit balls at ranges, on the next stall from where instructors were giving lessons, and Not once did any of them offer to show me something. All I/we did was say hi, and that was it.

 

Yeah I've had a few frauds (or self-deluders, you choose) sidle up and try to offer advice.  Never had a good pro do that.  Only time someone sidled up and offered random advice that was good was recently actually.  Kid who works at the local range, maybe 23, studying/training trying to become a pro.  This was right after my most recent My Swing post.  He watched a few balls, advised one thing quite similar to what Mike had me working on and complemented my doing correctly another aspect of what Mike had recommended I implement!  And his general talk about the swing and the things he was focused on were very promising for his career as a pro.

post #46 of 66
When you run across crappy instructors like these, when asked about them, do you:
1. Be polite and courteous about them and withhold any negative comments and let them make the decision themselves
2. Withhold tact and be brutally honest about how you feel?

I am afraid of number 2 because I don't want it get back to the instructor that I'm starting drama.
post #47 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclark View Post

When you run across crappy instructors like these, when asked about them, do you:
1. Be polite and courteous about them and withhold any negative comments and let them make the decision themselves
2. Withhold tact and be brutally honest about how you feel?

I am afraid of number 2 because I don't want it get back to the instructor that I'm starting drama.

 

Well, two parts:

 

One forum you can be brutally honest, but don't name names. The reason is because that coach could be a perfectly suited instructor for someone else. There is definitely some chemistry between a teacher and student that makes the relationship fruitful or not.

 

Concur with your assessment of number 2. In person, it's always better to be polite.

post #48 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

Well, two parts:

 

One forum you can be brutally honest, but don't name names. The reason is because that coach could be a perfectly suited instructor for someone else. There is definitely some chemistry between a teacher and student that makes the relationship fruitful or not.

 

Concur with your assessment of number 2. In person, it's always better to be polite.

Yeah, I would be very hesitant to label somebody as a "bad coach". There are plenty of swings on the PGA Tour that some people might well be able to copy that some other people can't and shouldn't try to copy.

 

I'm leery of any coach in any sport that thinks there is a one size fits all cookie cutter approach but even that can work with the right instructor/student matchups.

 

On another note: I heard a conversation between a couple of very good players one day that were discussing the new golf pro at the country club. They were insinuating that he couldn't be very good because they could beat him. My thoughts were that has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to teach. If that was the criteria none of the PGA Tour players would be able to have a coach.

post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

The reason is because that coach could be a perfectly suited instructor for someone else.

This is true, and this is also precisely why the only type of coach that I would label as "bad" is the one who teaches every one of his clients the exact same swing.  I know a coach who does this, and he seems like a great guy, and he probably helps a lot of them.  But it just doesn't make sense that he could be so rigid in his lessons, that every single client, regardless of age and ability gets the exact same schpiel.

 

And I even have a friend that took lessons with this guy who went backwards and still hasn't recovered.

post #50 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post




They often simply choose the cheapest and/or most convenient. Who can blame them for that? They're new to the game - they don't know to go online to look. They just think a golf lesson is a golf lesson. It's unfortunate that they sometimes (often?) fall prey to lesser instructors, mostly because it may dampen their spirit for the game, but also because it often dampens their spirit for instruction. That hurts the good instructors too.

This was me.

Last year I took four lessons from three different instructors and got turned off by all of them.

The first guy I got a lesson from went fine and used video from a local golf store. A week or so later, I'm at the store to buy something and saw the instructor. I asked him for clarification in something from the lesson and he pretty much pushed me to get a second lesson and that we could go in-depth. I was put off by being pushed into getting a second lesson and had he not behaved that way, I probably would have gone for a second lesson.

The second guy I went to for two lessons. First lesson went ok and during the second lesson I told him I was slicing the ball with my driver. He asked me to take some swings and then said it would work itself out.

The third guy was cool. He's the younger more inexpensive instructor and we had a good lesson. A week or so later I went to the course he works at to play a round and he was there with the senior instructor and asked them a question about something I read about on this forum and the senior instructor asked me where I heard it. I told him a friend told me and he said there was a reason why I didn't pay my friends for golf instruction and paid them for it. It came across as very arrogant and the fact that he dismissed what I had read here just made me feel I didn't want anymore instruction from there, even if the instructor who I had gotten the lesson from hadn't said it.

Thankfully, I enjoy the game a lot so whereas I'm not good at it, none of these experiences put me off to the game and I feel myself improving with Evolvr lessons I've been getting. Hopefully in translates on to the course!
post #51 of 66

Im sure there are students of the golf swing that love that sort of thing. 

I personally choose a lesson from playing pros and spend last 3 lessons on putting and chipping as that's where the bulk of my scoring is lost.

I like asking questions and learn from that, and if the teaching doesnt know that okay, as maybe its not an important question.

I dislike a teaching pro trying to teach a swing that is his way or the highway. 

I see a lot of different looking swings that work and can not afford the time or effort or revamp my swing.

However I know there are a lot of guys that like that and want to  change their swing.

post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchoye View Post

I personally choose a lesson from playing pros and spend last 3 lessons on putting and chipping as that's where the bulk of my scoring is lost.

It's OT for the thread, but are you sure about that? You'd be a really rare golfer if so.

Lots of threads about this too.
post #53 of 66

I can hit my gap wedge 125 yards if I swing it twice. B-)

 

I also had a pro come up on a range once and give me advice. Told me the reason I kept pushing the ball was I wasn't loading on my back leg properly or something like that. After I told him I was aiming for the right because straight up from me was a big hill on the back and I couldn't see my ball land he just walked away and went and "helped" someone else. 

 

Also my next couple of lessons will be short game only. It's where you score baby.

post #54 of 66

My first teacher was maybe a little bit of a con artist.  I mean . .not really .. but a little bit.  He could hit the ball awesome.  He was in his 60's and could drive it pretty close to 300 yards.  He could hit it well over 200 yards sitting in a chair.  He could hit it high, low, draw, fade, yada, yada.  And he would go on and on about what an awesome instructor he was.  I'm not gonna say he was a bad instructor all-around but I didn't learn anything in 8 lessons with him.  He just watched me hit balls and would make comments like "more around", "less hit" . .even though I really had no idea what he was saying.  When I asked him to explain, he would get out this golf instruction book, flip open to a specific page and say "the golf swing is *around* the body", etc, etc.  If I kept asking because I didn't understand  .. like I wanted him to explain what he meant by "don't hit the ball" . .he would just get annoyed.  

 

So either he was a bad teacher . .or he was a being a bit of a con artist with me and pretty much phoning it in - because, now that I've had a decent instructor, I see there's a lot more too it than making cryptic comments and constantly referring to the same diagram about how the golf swing is a circle.    

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