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post #37 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

I'm not going to get into the Christianity debate, but this is a laughably false equivalence.  There are 2-5% of people who, if you raise them in an ideologically heterosexual culture that would deny the existence of homosexuality if asked, violently oppresses homosexuals, and makes sure as many people as possible aren't even aware that it exists, are still homosexual and are attracted exclusively to people of the same gender.  They all have the same feeling.  They are born that way.

 

It is laughable to pretend the same is true of religion.  There might be a minority of people who tend towards intense religious devotion in modern cultural contexts where religion is ubiquitous and obviously available (this availability and knowledge is there even in largely atheist/agnostic modern countries).  But raise them in a place with absolutely no concept of god or religion and claim that they'd all personally invent Calvinism (or any religion) and suffer their whole lives cause those around them would oppress them if they admitted their secret Calvinism, which just happens to be the exact same Calvinism invented personally by every other naturally born intensely religious person?  Come on.

I believe that people are born with natural tendencies/feelings towards many things.  A sense that there is a higher being is one of those things.  Laugh at my opinion all you want.

post #38 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

There are very powerful, prominent politicians who would argue in public that the Bible is the Word of God, every word of it.  Some would argue your first paragraph is blasphemy.  They push Creationism in statewide school curriculum.  They are serious about it and want our country to become a Christian state.  

 

Most of us who were raised Christian are more in line with what you have stated.  But when Bubba or others refer to the Bible to determine their point of view on a subject like gay marriage, they are using the literal translation of certain passages as the driving factor.

 

Science as taught in public schools is being stated as facts. This is the point where many of the Creationists object. Evolution is still a theory (although a very good one).

 

The free will we were given allows us to use science to seek the truth. Science is only a tool that we can use to understand more of the world around us, and should not be taught as a replacement for Religion.

post #39 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran123 View Post
 

 

Of course the bible isn't a religion. Like you said, it's a guideline. And every decade, those guidelines get looser and looser depending on what we as a people deem acceptable amnd what science proves as fact.

 

the Bible was written with yesterdays knowledge, we knew a lot less....religion was invented to try and answer questions society back then did not have answers for. "Childbirth is painful because a woman listened to a talking snake'

 

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

Religion is also based on yester years morality. Slavery was common, rape was a way of life, prejudice was rampant, woman had no rights - and the bible reflects this. It is full of ignorant truths and facts, written by uneducated thugs who believed in it.

 

There are no commandments prohibiting slavery or rape. There is no woman's equality in the bible, because woman weren't equal.

 

Translation does not delete things from the bible, woman's rights were never there, commandments surrounding rape and slavery were never there.

What is wrong with us evolving as a race and allowing our view of certain things in the Bible to evolve with it?  Those people that founded the United States (I know you're a Kiwi ;)) also had some pretty horrible views on slavery and women's rights, but because the world isn't black and white, we don't have to automatically discount everything they ever said just because they were dead wrong about a few things.  We amend those things to fit our current views, keep the framework and foundation of the main premise, and move forward.  Why can't religion or faith be the same?  Why does it have to be "you believe in a talking snake or you are not religious?"

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

I'm not going to get into the Christianity debate, but this is a laughably false equivalence.  There are 2-5% of people who, if you raise them in an ideologically heterosexual culture that would deny the existence of homosexuality if asked, violently oppresses homosexuals, and makes sure as many people as possible aren't even aware that it exists, are still homosexual and are attracted exclusively to people of the same gender.  They all have the same feeling.  They are born that way.

 

It is laughable to pretend the same is true of religion.  There might be a minority of people who tend towards intense religious devotion in modern cultural contexts where religion is ubiquitous and obviously available (this availability and knowledge is there even in largely atheist/agnostic modern countries).  But raise them in a place with absolutely no concept of god or religion and claim that they'd all personally invent Calvinism (or any religion) and suffer their whole lives cause those around them would oppress them if they admitted their secret Calvinism, which just happens to be the exact same Calvinism invented personally by every other naturally born intensely religious person?  Come on.

Except the other part of his quote is valid.  Kieran was confusing faith with church.  Just because there are corrupt people out there who claim Christianity doesn't mean that it's altogether wrong.  It's the same thing so many in America are doing towards Muslims.  A couple of crazies claim their religion as the reason for terrorism, therefore their religion is bad.  That is a false equivalence.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boogielicious View Post
 

But when Bubba or others refer to the Bible to determine their point of view on a subject like gay marriage, they are using the literal translation of certain passages as the driving factor.

Yes, and that's why I told @Kieran123 that I believe that he's wrong about people all taking the Bible as 100% true.  (Pretty sure those politicians you reference don't believe in stoning divorcee's)  But if the Bible is used as an argument, then you can say "wait a minute Bubba, that doesn't fly, unless you believe in all of this other stuff because 'its in the Bible.'"

post #40 of 62
post #41 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

What is wrong with us evolving as a race and allowing our view of certain things in the Bible to evolve with it?  Those people that founded the United States (I know you're a Kiwi ;)) also had some pretty horrible views on slavery and women's rights, but because the world isn't black and white, we don't have to automatically discount everything they ever said just because they were dead wrong about a few things.  We amend those things to fit our current views, keep the framework and foundation of the main premise, and move forward.  Why can't religion or faith be the same?  Why does it have to be "you believe in a talking snake or you are not religious?"

 

Except the other part of his quote is valid.  Kieran was confusing faith with church.  Just because there are corrupt people out there who claim Christianity doesn't mean that it's altogether wrong.  It's the same thing so many in America are doing towards Muslims.  A couple of crazies claim their religion as the reason for terrorism, therefore their religion is bad.  That is a false equivalence.

 

Yes, and that's why I told @Kieran123 that I believe that he's wrong about people all taking the Bible as 100% true.  (Pretty sure those politicians you reference don't believe in stoning divorcee's)  But if the Bible is used as an argument, then you can say "wait a minute Bubba, that doesn't fly, unless you believe in all of this other stuff because 'its in the Bible.'"

 

I value your opinion - but this thread may stretch to around 500 pages at this rate

 

I'm out :beer: 

 

To clarify - I have no problem with any religious person simply because they are religious, and I probably offended some ( both religious and non religious ). I apologize, but your faith is as strong as my lack thereof.

 

 

post #42 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post
 

I believe that people are born with natural tendencies/feelings towards many things.  A sense that there is a higher being is one of those things.  Laugh at my opinion all you want.

 

Sure, I'm agreeing with that.  At least that there are tendencies people are born with that in modern cultures is expressed as religious devotion.  It's just obviously not comparable to homosexuality.  And the fact that some people are born with more of a tendency towards religious belief is surely not an excuse to parlay that into a defense of oppression of women or homosexuals or natural believers who've chosen some other religion, as is done by a large number (a majority in some places) of the religiously devoted all throughout the world in many religions.

 

I think the issue is that most people can agree with the fact that some people are born with more tendency towards religious feelings.  Religious oppressors like to conflate that with their devotion to particular religious views and feel it gives them free reign to treat their oppressive beliefs as natural and okay in the same way modern society tends towards accepting other natural, in-born characteristics such as race or sexuality as natural and okay. 

post #43 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

Sure, I'm agreeing with that.  At least that there are tendencies people are born with that in modern cultures is expressed as religious devotion.  It's just obviously not comparable to homosexuality.  And the fact that some people are born with more of a tendency towards religious belief is surely not an excuse to parlay that into a defense of oppression of women or homosexuals or natural believers who've chosen some other religion, as is done by a large number (a majority in some places) of the religiously devoted all throughout the world in many religions.

 

I think the issue is that most people can agree with the fact that some people are born with more tendency towards religious feelings.  Religious oppressors like to conflate that with their devotion to particular religious views and feel it gives them free reign to treat their oppressive beliefs as natural and okay in the same way modern society tends towards accepting other natural, in-born characteristics such as race or sexuality as natural and okay. 

 

I agree that homosexuality can be a physical characteristic you are born, but in many cases it is not. Just like some people are born without a specific gender. However, these are much more rare than we are currently being led to believe. There's that word again.

 

Science is a means to prove or disprove anything tangible, but in many cases they are not provable.

 

I suppose it is possible that a person be legitimately born with a tendency towards a specific religion, but most of us are born with free will to allow us to choose.

post #44 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

Sure, I'm agreeing with that.  At least that there are tendencies people are born with that in modern cultures is expressed as religious devotion.  It's just obviously not comparable to homosexuality.  And the fact that some people are born with more of a tendency towards religious belief is surely not an excuse to parlay that into a defense of oppression of women or homosexuals or natural believers who've chosen some other religion, as is done by a large number (a majority in some places) of the religiously devoted all throughout the world in many religions.

 

I think the issue is that most people can agree with the fact that some people are born with more tendency towards religious feelings.  Religious oppressors like to conflate that with their devotion to particular religious views and feel it gives them free reign to treat their oppressive beliefs as natural and okay in the same way modern society tends towards accepting other natural, in-born characteristics such as race or sexuality as natural and okay.

I just ask that we are not all assumed to be as such. I only try to follow and model myself after someone who had unconditional love towards all people. Most of the time I fail.

post #45 of 62

The fundamental teaching of the bible and religion is the 10 commandments;

  1. You shall have no other gods before me.
  2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
  3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

 

Beyond the first 3 which are centered around God what is so wrong with these teachings.  The 6 remaining commandments are the backbone of religion, our morality and legal system.  #4 is the basis for businesses closing on Sunday, which is at great debate these days by both sides as to whether or not Sunday should be a family day and not a work day.

 

As I stated I'm agnostic but I don't condemn those that are religious as ignorant because they choose to believe there is a higher power at work and that there are religious teachings that help one to maintain proper balance in life.

 

Some here are taking extremist views as general views.  Maybe @Kieran123 has met some extremists but of all the religious people I know, none are against gay marriage and don't oppose abortion but don't believe it should be used as a lazy persons means of birth control either.

post #46 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

The fundamental teaching of the bible and religion is the 10 commandments;

  1. You shall have no other gods before me.
  2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
  3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

Oh boy ... I am screwed.  I think I've broken all but 3 or 4 of these in my life.:8)

post #47 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

I agree that homosexuality can be a physical characteristic you are born, but in many cases it is not. Just like some people are born without a specific gender. However, these are much more rare than we are currently being led to believe. There's that word again.

 

Science is a means to prove or disprove anything tangible, but in many cases they are not provable.

 

I suppose it is possible that a person be legitimately born with a tendency towards a specific religion, but most of us are born with free will to allow us to choose.

Let's not place too much emphasis on science because very little science these days is practiced without an agenda (due to the nature of grants) and pre-determined outcomes.  There are plenty of scientific studies that report completely opposite findings.  Science is a tool used by those in power to influence our behaviors.

 

If you want to reduce use of fossil fuels pay for a scientific study to prove global warming is caused by fossil fuels.  Want to sell more fossil fuels, pay for a study on the damage to the environment caused by battery disposal or disprove the effects of fossil fuels on global warming.  It's all crap.

 

Perform a search on whether or not homosexuality is a genetic trait and you'll find multiple scientific studies that conflict with each other.  The bottom line is who cares?  If homosexuals are happy and have the same rights as heterosexuals who cares if it's their "choice" or part of their DNA.

post #48 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 

Oh boy ... I am screwed.  I think I've broken all but 3 or 4 of these in my life.:8)

If I was religious I'd pray for you :beer:.  It's okay if you drooled over Dufner's wife or Paulina, I don't think you are much of a threat.

post #49 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

Let's not place too much emphasis on science because very little science these days is practiced without an agenda (due to the nature of grants) and pre-determined outcomes.  There are plenty of scientific studies that report completely opposite findings.  Science is a tool used by those in power to influence our behaviors.

 

If you want to reduce use of fossil fuels pay for a scientific study to prove global warming is caused by fossil fuels.  Want to sell more fossil fuels, pay for a study on the damage to the environment caused by battery disposal or disprove the effects of fossil fuels on global warming.  It's all crap.

 

Perform a search on whether or not homosexuality is a genetic trait and you'll find multiple scientific studies that conflict with each other.  The bottom line is who cares?  If homosexuals are happy and have the same rights as heterosexuals who cares if it's their "choice" or part of their DNA.

 

That's the key. "Free will" is another name for it.

post #50 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran123 View Post
 
 

 

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

 

 

 

How do you know this does not mean spiritual death?  See below (no man can fulfill the law).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cipher View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdl View Post
 

 

I'm not going to get into the Christianity debate, but this is a laughably false equivalence.  There are 2-5% of people who, if you raise them in an ideologically heterosexual culture that would deny the existence of homosexuality if asked, violently oppresses homosexuals, and makes sure as many people as possible aren't even aware that it exists, are still homosexual and are attracted exclusively to people of the same gender.  They all have the same feeling.  They are born that way.

 

It is laughable to pretend the same is true of religion.  There might be a minority of people who tend towards intense religious devotion in modern cultural contexts where religion is ubiquitous and obviously available (this availability and knowledge is there even in largely atheist/agnostic modern countries).  But raise them in a place with absolutely no concept of god or religion and claim that they'd all personally invent Calvinism (or any religion) and suffer their whole lives cause those around them would oppress them if they admitted their secret Calvinism, which just happens to be the exact same Calvinism invented personally by every other naturally born intensely religious person?  Come on.

I believe that people are born with natural tendencies/feelings towards many things.  A sense that there is a higher being is one of those things.  Laugh at my opinion all you want.

 

I feel the same.  I feel that gay people are born with those tendencies.  Where I differ from some is, I feel those tendencies are wrong.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golfingdad View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

The fundamental teaching of the bible and religion is the 10 commandments;

  1. You shall have no other gods before me.
  2. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
  3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
  4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
  5. Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.
  6. You shall not murder.
  7. You shall not commit adultery.
  8. You shall not steal.
  9. You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor

Oh boy ... I am screwed.  I think I've broken all but 3 or 4 of these in my life.:8)

 

You have probably broke them all.  If you thought it, you committed it.  No man can fulfill the law.  That is why God gave us a savior.

post #51 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

If I was religious I'd pray for you :beer:.  It's okay if you drooled over Dufner's wife or Paulina, I don't think you are much of a threat.

Maybe I could get off on a technicality though ... seeing as how neither the Dufner's or Gretzky/Johnson's are my neighbors. :-P

post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lihu View Post
 

 

Science as taught in public schools is being stated as facts. This is the point where many of the Creationists object. Evolution is still a theory (although a very good one).

 

The free will we were given allows us to use science to seek the truth. Science is only a tool that we can use to understand more of the world around us, and should not be taught as a replacement for Religion.

The evidence for evolution is vast.  The evidence on creationism is nonexistent.  Using the theory excuse is a lame argument.  Gravity is a theory.  Does it not exist because it is theoretical?  Creationist are demanding you think the way they do with no deviation.  Science is constantly asking new questions even when answers are discovered.  

post #53 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kieran123 View Post

 

There are no commandments prohibiting slavery or rape. There is no woman's equality in the bible, because woman weren't equal.

 

Further reading in Exodus reveals the treatment of many of the other things in detail.

post #54 of 62

It is interesting.. when I give my opinion that the "theory" that people are born with gay tendencies I am called ignorant, but for them it is ok to take everything that is said hook line and sinker as if it is gospel.. I can see how this thread is just going to light up because of the issue being discussed, but I will not be intimidated by anyone and I will not back down from my belief.

 

Homosexuality is a deviant behavior, and the people of LOT لوط in arabic had the town they lived in lifted into the sky and then turned over and smashed back down by the Arch Angle Gabriel جبرائيل (Arabic Name) and they were eliminated accordingly.  

 

It is impossible for me to meet in the middle with anyone on this as my belief is not up for discussion.  However, what I can do is let those people live their lives as they wish, as I will not  be held accountable.. Do I like them no.. Do I hate their behavior?  Yes.. Would I allow someone to teach my children that it is ok for Fred to have 2 dads or two moms?  No.. Will I go out of my way to bother these deviants?  No.. They are free to make what ever shitty decision they want to make, however I reserve my right to pass judgment on their deviant behavior and I will not be held hostage by the gay hollywood type who are looking to expand their gay circles around the US and around the world.

 

Go ahead guys and say what ever you want about me.. find out if I care?

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