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Rate of Closure and Spin Axis

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 

I recently read the blog post below on rate of closure - @iacas - so a high rate of closure -> slice, low -> hook? For righties.

 

Also, I assume face/path differential overrides rate of closure by a lot?

 

http://3jack.blogspot.com/2014/04/rate-of-closure-and-spin-axis.html

post #2 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post

I recently read the blog post below on rate of closure - @iacas
 - so a high rate of closure -> slice, low -> hook? For righties.

Also, I assume face/path differential overrides rate of closure by a lot?

http://3jack.blogspot.com/2014/04/rate-of-closure-and-spin-axis.html

Would it be that, or high rate of closure -> slice, low rate of closure -> less of a slice? Either way (high or low rate of closure) the club is still rotating in the same direction (counterclockwise), so shouldn't the ball still rotate clockwise in both cases?

EDIT: I missed Richie's last paragraph, which is basically saying what I just did. Have you guys or the Trackman guys tested this stuff, or is still more of a hypothesis?
post #3 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamo View Post


Would it be that, or high rate of closure -> slice, low rate of closure -> less of a slice? Either way (high or low rate of closure) the club is still rotating in the same direction (counterclockwise), so shouldn't the ball still rotate clockwise in both cases?

EDIT: I missed Richie's last paragraph, which is basically saying what I just did. Have you guys or the Trackman guys tested this stuff, or is still more of a hypothesis?

 

Yes, I stand corrected. 

post #4 of 28

Thanks for pointing that out. I posted this comment to his blog article:

 

Agree on the last part. We were mostly pointing out to those who still think "horizontal hinging" produces draws solely because of the face closing during the impact interval had it backwards.

 

I'd guessed that the number would be very small, and it is: Fredrik gave me the number, but I think it was something like 0.7°, and that's with an incredibly high rate of closure (and possibly with the driver). That is to say that with an incredibly high RoC, the spin axis will be tilted about 0.7° farther to the right (for a righty) than it would with no RoC (which as you hinted at is highly unlikely on a full swing shot).

 

It's also important to point out how little distance off-center you have to strike a golf ball for actual gear effect to take over. This "RoC Gear Effect" is, again, easily over-ruled.

post #5 of 28
Stuff like this makes my face hurt.....
post #6 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Stuff like this makes my face hurt.....

 

Even though as @iacas points out that gear effect (due to off center hits and many of us are off center, a lot) overrides RoC, it means all those guys saying in theory, closing the face promotes a draw - they're not correct.

 

More stuff to sing "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" with your hands to ears while some guy who thinks he knows it all, totally unqualified, however well meaning, tries to teach the guy in the stall next to you.

post #7 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

Even though as @iacas points out that gear effect (due to off center hits and many of us are off center, a lot) overrides RoC, it means all those guys saying in theory, closing the face promotes a draw - they're not correct.

 

Yes it does. If I have to draw or hook the ball, I'm closing the face a bunch. At setup.

 

Horizontal hinging works because it gets the face more closed to the path at impact. But it literally says that the action of closing the face during the impact interval is what makes it draw. Turns out that's backwards. That's all.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

More stuff to sing "I'm not listening, I'm not listening" with your hands to ears while some guy who thinks he knows it all, totally unqualified, however well meaning, tries to teach the guy in the stall next to you.

 

:)

post #8 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Yes it does. If I have to draw or hook the ball, I'm closing the face a bunch. At setup.

 

Horizontal hinging works because it gets the face more closed to the path at impact. But it literally says that the action of closing the face during the impact interval is what makes it draw. Turns out that's backwards. That's all.

 

 

:)

 

Errr. Have to be more careful with my words. :-) I meant thinking of closing the face crazy faster during that nanosecond of impact.

 

But closing the face at setup - it gets people to get face closed to path, so even if they're over the top, way over the top, their path still manages to be open to the face. So while they're hitting a draw, albeit really left, they're not truly swinging in to out. They may be thinking - I've got something, but really aren't swing more in to out as the should.

post #9 of 28
What on earth are you guys talking about? How does any of this fix my hook?
post #10 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

What on earth are you guys talking about? How does any of this fix my hook?

 

Its basically how much the club face goes from open pre impact to closed post impact.

post #11 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

What on earth are you guys talking about? How does any of this fix my hook?

 

As someone who admittedly probably reads too much and into the details of the swing, probably not much compared to how much a good teacher will help you.

 

But if your pro is going by the old ball flight laws, a ton.

post #12 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Stuff like this makes my face hurt.....

 

Just keep getting that left shoulder down ;-)

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wangus94 View Post

What on earth are you guys talking about? How does any of this fix my hook?

 

Take home, "closing" the toe more through impact doesn't make the ball draw, if anything it can make the ball fade.

post #13 of 28
I don't really think too much about stuff like that. My pro told me my hook is because my upper body is too slow compared to my arms. I'm not sure about the path vs face thing. He' keeps telling me to clear everything faster
post #14 of 28
Thread Starter 
So high speed close up video of the face opening up around impact on tv - I wonder how many of these were not shown that were a draw/slice to keep in line with generally accepted principles. This is very conspiracy theory, I know.
post #15 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post

So high speed close up video of the face opening up around impact on tv - I wonder how many of these were not shown that were a draw/slice to keep in line with generally accepted principles. This is very conspiracy theory, I know.

Huh? Elaborate more. What?
post #16 of 28
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

Huh? Elaborate more. What?

 

When they show the face twisting open on replays, it's always when they hit a fade. At least based on my recollection.

post #17 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

 

When they show the face twisting open on replays, it's always when they hit a fade. At least based on my recollection.

 

I don't think it's a conspiracy, the "experts" just don't know why there is gear effect. Most golfers think that there is only gear effect on woods and that it's due to the bulge and roll.

post #18 of 28
This is all that Trackman crap... Seems useless for most of us right?
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