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Anyone else tired of hearing the PGA and USGA talk about pace of play? - Page 7

post #109 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post

I was going to put 3.5 but I figured I'd get jumped on...

Our 3-some waited on every single shot on Friday and we still finished in 3:10. Oh yeah, the 4-ball in front of us had 2 women and made it around that fast.

It amazes me how some people don't understand how quickly you can get around WITHOUT RUSHING if you just play ready golf and keep moving.
post #110 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamroper60 View Post

I play in a skins game with 4 other guys twice a week.   The five of us typically tee off at 9:00am and by 12:30pm, we are popping tops in the clubhouse.   We aren't playing speed golf and we aren't actually attempting to play fast.   We just play ready golf.  I think if 5 of us can get in 18 holes in just under 3.5 hours, there isn't really a legitimate excuse for a 4-some (or less) to need any longer than that.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's not "speed golf". It's just, be ready to hit and then just hit the damn ball.
post #111 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnclayton1982 View Post
 

 

-   My course recommends we play a round in four hours and fifteen minutes.

 

-   But if recommended time is 4 hours 15 minutes, and I finish in 4, you have nothing to complain about.

 

-   I'm slow or fast only in comparison to the objective standard posted by the course.

 

-   If groups get backed up and we finish in less than the posted course time, its not slow.  By definition.

 

And these statements all clearly demonstrate why slow play is an issue that begins with the course.  When a course posts a 4:15 expectation, people will rightfully interpret that to mean that anything at or around that time is acceptable.

 

Until courses begin to set an expectation of 3:30 or less, we'll continue to have people who think that a round of golf needs to take forever.  And make no mistake, anything over 4 hours is nothing short of a death slog.

 

This is wrong.  It doesn't matter if the target number is possible, but it does matter if the player sees it as achievable.  If you set goals which are not seen as reasonable, they will be ignored or the player will simply feel rushed and frustrated.  It's no different from setting goals on the job.  They have to be seen as reachable or all you will do is destroy morale, and the goals will not be achieved anyway.  You are wrong about your time limit for most courses and most players, as the situation currently stands.  You have to take small steps, and you will still get where you are headed, but you will get there with happier customers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

Nothing.  That's why I blame the course.

 

They cater to people who are slow and who don't care about anyone else on the course except themselves.  Until more courses refuse to do so, the majority of golfers will continue to have issues with pace of play and golf in general will continue to decline.

If a course publishes their POP is 4:00 then that is what one should expect.  If someone wants to play a round in less than 3.5 hours they are imo just as inconsiderate as someone that take 4.5 hours. 

 

Absolutely.  No matter if a course is playable at 4:00.  If the current average is 4:30, then set a goal at 4:20.  Once that is achieved then move the goal to 4:10.  And while that is going on, focus management efforts on educating the players on how they can achieve those improvements.  Doing nothing but telling players "You're playing too slow - go faster." is counterproductive.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleback View Post
 

Personally I would never play at a course that mandates that players break the rules.

 

Appendix A Part 1 Local Rules.

 

If they obtained USGA  permission, it's perfectly within the rules.

 

No, that will never happen.  A local rule cannot contravene a rule of golf.  Ignoring or eliminating a stroke and distance penalty is beyond the allowed scope of a local rule.  No such local rule would ever be authorized.

post #112 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

This is wrong.  It doesn't matter if the target number is possible, but it does matter if the player sees it as achievable.  If you set goals which are not seen as reasonable, they will be ignored or the player will simply feel rushed and frustrated.  It's no different from setting goals on the job.  They have to be seen as reachable or all you will do is destroy morale, and the goals will not be achieved anyway.  You are wrong about your time limit for most courses and most players, as the situation currently stands.  You have to take small steps, and you will still get where you are headed, but you will get there with happier customers.

 

 

Absolutely.  No matter if a course is playable at 4:00.  If the current average is 4:30, then set a goal at 4:20.  Once that is achieved then move the goal to 4:10.  And while that is going on, focus management efforts on educating the players on how they can achieve those improvements.  Doing nothing but telling players "You're playing too slow - go faster." is counterproductive.

 

 

 

 

Just because somebody doesn't think that a time is possible, doesn't mean that it isn't.  Too many people think that it's impossible to play a round of golf in under 4 hours without rushing.  We (the courses) have to educate them otherwise.  You're absolutely right when you say that simply telling people to "go faster" doesn't work.  Too many don't know what's causing them to be slow, and some just don't care.  The former need to be educated, the latter need to be physically moved along.

 

You're right in that the POP targets shouldn't be adjusted too aggressively.......from a current target of 4:20 to 3:30 would be a bit much.  But, and I tell this to senior leaders/managers all the time too, less bad, is NOT the same as better.  Poor performance, whether in business or on the course must be corrected with performance that's at least minimally acceptable.  Moving your sales from 30% down to LY to 28% down is not better, it's less bad......barely.  That needs to be communicated with clear expectations and followed up upon with positive reinforcement where appropriate, or additional counseling or more punitive measures if necessary.  The same applies to POP.

 

Let's not settle for "less bad"......

post #113 of 131
Right also important to consider whatever the POP is it's the maximum time including allowances for mistakes not a target. It shouldn't be a a goal to use it all, worst case scenario. Also would be helpful to explain to the slowpokes that feel asking them to play faster how little is required to do it. Most holes allow 7-14 minutes to complete. Shaving just 30-40 seconds per hole gets you around 15 minutes faster. You don't have to alter much to play 30 seconds faster, common sense changes without changing routine is enough.
post #114 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

This is wrong.  It doesn't matter if the target number is possible, but it does matter if the player sees it as achievable.  If you set goals which are not seen as reasonable, they will be ignored or the player will simply feel rushed and frustrated.  It's no different from setting goals on the job.  They have to be seen as reachable or all you will do is destroy morale, and the goals will not be achieved anyway.  You are wrong about your time limit for most courses and most players, as the situation currently stands.  You have to take small steps, and you will still get where you are headed, but you will get there with happier customers.

 

 

Absolutely.  No matter if a course is playable at 4:00.  If the current average is 4:30, then set a goal at 4:20.  Once that is achieved then move the goal to 4:10.  And while that is going on, focus management efforts on educating the players on how they can achieve those improvements.  Doing nothing but telling players "You're playing too slow - go faster." is counterproductive.

 

 

 

 

Just because somebody doesn't think that a time is possible, doesn't mean that it isn't.  Too many people think that it's impossible to play a round of golf in under 4 hours without rushing.  We (the courses) have to educate them otherwise.  You're absolutely right when you say that simply telling people to "go faster" doesn't work.  Too many don't know what's causing them to be slow, and some just don't care.  The former need to be educated, the latter need to be physically moved along.

 

You're right in that the POP targets shouldn't be adjusted too aggressively.......from a current target of 4:20 to 3:30 would be a bit much.  But, and I tell this to senior leaders/managers all the time too, less bad, is NOT the same as better.  Poor performance, whether in business or on the course must be corrected with performance that's at least minimally acceptable.  Moving your sales from 30% down to LY to 28% down is not better, it's less bad......barely.  That needs to be communicated with clear expectations and followed up upon with positive reinforcement where appropriate, or additional counseling or more punitive measures if necessary.  The same applies to POP.

 

Let's not settle for "less bad"......

 

My point is that for many, if not most, golfers now playing, 4:30 isn't bad, and 4:20 isn't "less bad", because they have never seen what we call good.  That is like adding someone new to your sales staff during a recession who has never seen anything better than that 28% down.  Then what you see as still 25% down would to him be 3% up.  A lot depends on perspective, and that can't be ignored when formulating a plan for improvement.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post

Right also important to consider whatever the POP is it's the maximum time including allowances for mistakes not a target. It shouldn't be a a goal to use it all, worst case scenario. Also would be helpful to explain to the slowpokes that feel asking them to play faster how little is required to do it. Most holes allow 7-14 minutes to complete. Shaving just 30-40 seconds per hole gets you around 15 minutes faster. You don't have to alter much to play 30 seconds faster, common sense changes without changing routine is enough.

 

Good points.  I agree that even a 4:15 pace still leaves a lot of room for improvement.  14.1 minutes per hole is generous for me and the guys I play with, and we are not a bunch of single digit cappers.  We can easily shave a full minute per hole and still not feel rushed.

post #115 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that for many, if not most, golfers now playing, 4:30 isn't bad, and 4:20 isn't "less bad", because they have never seen what we call good.  That is like adding someone new to your sales staff during a recession who has never seen anything better than that 28% down.  Then what you see as still 25% down would to him be 3% up.  A lot depends on perspective, and that can't be ignored when formulating a plan for improvement.

 

 

At a 4:00 POP, we're not talking "good" here, we're talking marginally acceptable.  Whether someone knows that they're slow or not doesn't change the fact that they are.  Perspective is meaningless when applied to an objective metric that is achievable.  That's where education, coaching and training comes in, and the very first step in that process is to be very clear in setting reasonable expectations.  Whether they agree with the "reasonableness" or not.....

 

And FWIW, none of my managers are gonna be adding any staff, if they're down that much.  I may be replacing someone though.....   ;-)

post #116 of 131

To the original question...Yes I'm tired of hearing about it! Pace of play on most of the courses I play is fine..under 4 hours..most of time under 3 1/2 hours. I also don't really get bothered by how long it takes the pro's to play..meh! Doesn't really effect me too much.

There are always gonna be weekends that get backed up..it's gonna happen sometimes. With daylight savings time it's easier than ever to play weekday evening golf.

I'm also tired of hearing about "grow the game" Most all of the courses I play, also host high school/middle school golf tournaments. That's where the USGA needs to concentrate time and money. Not silly programs to trick people into trying golf! I see plenty of young people playing golf through school?? 

OK rant over.

Paul

post #117 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 

 

At a 4:00 POP, we're not talking "good" here, we're talking marginally acceptable.  Whether someone knows that they're slow or not doesn't change the fact that they are.  Perspective is meaningless when applied to an objective metric that is achievable.  That's where education, coaching and training comes in, and the very first step in that process is to be very clear in setting reasonable expectations.  Whether they agree with the "reasonableness" or not.....

 

And FWIW, none of my managers are gonna be adding any staff, if they're down that much.  I may be replacing someone though.....   ;-)

I think we agree on the principles, but we're not in agreement on some of your base assumptions that you use to build your argument.  You're assuming the majority of golfers want to play in 3.5 hours, I contend the majority of golfers world wide don't care if their round lasts 4.5 hours.  We here on TST are probably don't even represent 1% of the worlds golfers.  We're more hardcore and dedicated to playing golf so it's no surprise we're more concerned about POP than the rest of the golfing population.  

 

Semi-private and private country clubs have more dedicated golfers, it's a different mentality, at my club, we have pace of play guidelines (4 hour rounds), we enforce pace of play and threaten to suspend those that play too slow.  We hold education seminars on pace of play and course orientations, but it's a completely different setting and circumstances than what you find on a public or muni course.  

 

The guys I see on public courses are out there to get some fresh air, socialize with friends and play a casual round of golf.  They have a few beers, smoke a few stogies and look at golf as an afternoon activity that is a break from the hustle and bustle of every day life.  They barely want to hear the starters instructions no less sit through an education on pace of play techniques.  They also don't fix their divots or ball marks, leave cigar ashes sitting on the green and flirt with the cart girls.  

 

When a golfer plays multiple rounds of golf per week the time each round consumes becomes more important.  When you only play a round or two per month or less, how long one round takes isn't all that important.  It's like the guy that's driving with a purpose (work, practice, tee time, dinner reservations) is more likely to drive over the speed limit because they are trying to reach a destination where as the guy that is just out joy riding on a nice day doesn't care how long the ride takes.  

post #118 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I think we agree on the principles, but we're not in agreement on some of your base assumptions that you use to build your argument.  You're assuming the majority of golfers want to play in 3.5 hours, I contend the majority of golfers world wide don't care if their round lasts 4.5 hours.  We here on TST are probably don't even represent 1% of the worlds golfers.  We're more hardcore and dedicated to playing golf so it's no surprise we're more concerned about POP than the rest of the golfing population.

 

Semi-private and private country clubs have more dedicated golfers, it's a different mentality, at my club, we have pace of play guidelines (4 hour rounds), we enforce pace of play and threaten to suspend those that play too slow.  We hold education seminars on pace of play and course orientations, but it's a completely different setting and circumstances than what you find on a public or muni course.

 

The guys I see on public courses are out there to get some fresh air, socialize with friends and play a casual round of golf.  They have a few beers, smoke a few stogies and look at golf as an afternoon activity that is a break from the hustle and bustle of every day life.  They barely want to hear the starters instructions no less sit through an education on pace of play techniques.  They also don't fix their divots or ball marks, leave cigar ashes sitting on the green and flirt with the cart girls.

 

When a golfer plays multiple rounds of golf per week the time each round consumes becomes more important.  When you only play a round or two per month or less, how long one round takes isn't all that important.  It's like the guy that's driving with a purpose (work, practice, tee time, dinner reservations) is more likely to drive over the speed limit because they are trying to reach a destination where as the guy that is just out joy riding on a nice day doesn't care how long the ride takes.

 

 

Whenever studies are done trying to determine why golf is in decline, one of the very top items listed is always the amount of time that it takes.  So I just can't agree with that contention....

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post

 

The guys I see on public courses are out there to get some fresh air, socialize with friends and play a casual round of golf.  They have a few beers, smoke a few stogies and look at golf as an afternoon activity that is a break from the hustle and bustle of every day life.  They barely want to hear the starters instructions no less sit through an education on pace of play techniques.  They also don't fix their divots or ball marks, leave cigar ashes sitting on the green and flirt with the cart girls.  

 

 

.....and it's guys like this that are hurting the game, and causing people to leave the game or not give it a real chance.  Not because they're casual about the game, there's NOTHING wrong with that, but because they're oblivious to how their behavior affects others......or worse, they just don't care

post #119 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtogolf View Post
 

I think we agree on the principles, but we're not in agreement on some of your base assumptions that you use to build your argument.  You're assuming the majority of golfers want to play in 3.5 hours, I contend the majority of golfers world wide don't care if their round lasts 4.5 hours.  We here on TST are probably don't even represent 1% of the worlds golfers.  We're more hardcore and dedicated to playing golf so it's no surprise we're more concerned about POP than the rest of the golfing population.  

 

Semi-private and private country clubs have more dedicated golfers, it's a different mentality, at my club, we have pace of play guidelines (4 hour rounds), we enforce pace of play and threaten to suspend those that play too slow.  We hold education seminars on pace of play and course orientations, but it's a completely different setting and circumstances than what you find on a public or muni course.  

 

The guys I see on public courses are out there to get some fresh air, socialize with friends and play a casual round of golf.  They have a few beers, smoke a few stogies and look at golf as an afternoon activity that is a break from the hustle and bustle of every day life.  They barely want to hear the starters instructions no less sit through an education on pace of play techniques.  They also don't fix their divots or ball marks, leave cigar ashes sitting on the green and flirt with the cart girls.  

 

When a golfer plays multiple rounds of golf per week the time each round consumes becomes more important.  When you only play a round or two per month or less, how long one round takes isn't all that important.  It's like the guy that's driving with a purpose (work, practice, tee time, dinner reservations) is more likely to drive over the speed limit because they are trying to reach a destination where as the guy that is just out joy riding on a nice day doesn't care how long the ride takes.  

 

i think youre overgeneralizing.

 

if a round of golf takes 4.5 hours, then you are waiting on just about every hole.  fact.  do you think people like waiting?

 

i am no less of a "dedicated" golfer just because i dont have the funds to have a private club membership.

 

ive been able to play a few private courses.  i have seen unrepaired pitch marks, discarded ash on greens, and lecherous men at private clubs.

post #120 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

My point is that for many, if not most, golfers now playing, 4:30 isn't bad, and 4:20 isn't "less bad", because they have never seen what we call good.  That is like adding someone new to your sales staff during a recession who has never seen anything better than that 28% down.  Then what you see as still 25% down would to him be 3% up.  A lot depends on perspective, and that can't be ignored when formulating a plan for improvement.

 

 

At a 4:00 POP, we're not talking "good" here, we're talking marginally acceptable.  Whether someone knows that they're slow or not doesn't change the fact that they are.  Perspective is meaningless when applied to an objective metric that is achievable.  That's where education, coaching and training comes in, and the very first step in that process is to be very clear in setting reasonable expectations.  Whether they agree with the "reasonableness" or not.....

 

And FWIW, none of my managers are gonna be adding any staff, if they're down that much.  I may be replacing someone though.....   ;-)

 

If you honestly believe that 4 hours is bad, then you have unrealistic expectations for public golf.  4 hours has been anywhere from acceptable to fantastic during the nearly 40 years I've played golf actively.  In that time, I have never seen a course with a posted expectation of less than 4:15 for a fourball playing 18 holes.

post #121 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

If you honestly believe that 4 hours is bad, then you have unrealistic expectations for public golf.  4 hours has been anywhere from acceptable to fantastic during the nearly 40 years I've played golf actively.  In that time, I have never seen a course with a posted expectation of less than 4:15 for a fourball playing 18 holes.

 

99% of the golf I play, and like you, have played for well over 40 years, has been public golf.  I never said 4 hours was bad.  I said it was marginally acceptable, and it is.  But my point is, that when courses set POP's for 4:15 or 4:30, they're going to be lucky to get that......and they're certainly not going to get many rounds faster than the posted standard.  Kind of like the posted speed limit on the highway, anything within shouting distance of the standard is deemed ok.  That's where rounds of 4:45 and worse start creeping in.

 

You're right though, few courses post a faster standard, and that's exactly why I consider the courses to be at the head of the list when it comes to who can have the biggest impact on POP.

 

Just for the record though, of the 4 scorecards I found in my desk, only one has a published POP on it....   :-)

 

post #122 of 131
The Ranch CC in Westminster CO has a posted POP of 3:52.
post #123 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post

The Ranch CC in Westminster CO has a posted POP of 3:52.

 

But CC means Country Club.... not a public course.  We are talking a very different situation.

post #124 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

But CC means Country Club.... not a public course.  We are talking a very different situation.


Why? They send groups out at the same intervals. The quality of play, meaning the skill of the members isn't better than what I see on public courses. If anything it's a more free situation, the members literally act like they own the place. The difference I notice is the members know they will be called out for being slow so they are mindful not to be slow. To me this says when enforcement is reality people behave differently. So yes in that regard a different situation. However like public courses they too are struggling financially. Yet they still strive to enforce policies that assure the quality of the experience for the majority. This is where public courses fail. But the issues are see are staff related. Courses with kids manning the pro shop are sloppy. Those that function like a CC tend to feel and play better. I think it's more attitude than situation.

post #125 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by colin007 View Post
 

 

i think youre overgeneralizing.

 

if a round of golf takes 4.5 hours, then you are waiting on just about every hole.  fact.  do you think people like waiting?

 

i am no less of a "dedicated" golfer just because i dont have the funds to have a private club membership.

 

ive been able to play a few private courses.  i have seen unrepaired pitch marks, discarded ash on greens, and lecherous men at private clubs.

I wasn't saying people who choose not to join a country club aren't dedicated golfers.  My point was that there's a higher concentration of dedicated golfers at CC's and the membership is more likely to be concerned with POP.  

 

The club I belong to requires applicants have an active USGA handicap or be certified by the club pro (must be capable of scoring 36 on first five holes which are a par 22) before they can become a member.  They also must demonstrate their ability to fix a divot and ball mark properly.  You don't see people hacking the ball 20 yards at a time on my home course, we don't have cart girls and if your round takes longer than four hours you receive a warning and if it happens again you get suspended for 2 weeks.     

post #126 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourputt View Post
 

 

But CC means Country Club.... not a public course.  We are talking a very different situation.


Why? They send groups out at the same intervals. The quality of play, meaning the skill of the members isn't better than what I see on public courses. If anything it's a more free situation, the members literally act like they own the place. The difference I notice is the members know they will be called out for being slow so they are mindful not to be slow. To me this says when enforcement is reality people behave differently. So yes in that regard a different situation. However like public courses they too are struggling financially. Yet they still strive to enforce policies that assure the quality of the experience for the majority. This is where public courses fail. But the issues are see are staff related. Courses with kids manning the pro shop are sloppy. Those that function like a CC tend to feel and play better. I think it's more attitude than situation.

 

Country clubs have limited memberships and thus less play, even on weekends, without as much competition for tee times.  I've never played a a club that ran on 7 or 8 minute tee intervals like many public courses.  Public courses need to stay competitive to stay in business in a different way than private clubs do.  Players at the local muni rarely accept a $50 green fee as reasonable, so in order to load the course more, the intervals have to shrink.  While I don't really think that they are doing a service to the player this way, it's how such courses function.  They have to adjust tee intervals to be consistent with green fees and regional norms to maintain a balance between pace of play and revenue.  My home course has an 8 and 9 minute staggered system to add a few more tee times during the prime morning hours, then straight 9 minute times after 10:30.  Those few added groups add significantly to the bottom line.  The widest spacing I've ever experienced on a public course is 10 minutes. 

 

Country clubs don't have to use such strategies to stay competitive.  Instead they have to offer what their clientele expect as the perks for the premium cost of playing a private course - and one of those perks is well spaced tee times which prevent the log jams that would otherwise occur during the natural ebb and flow of a round of golf.  

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