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Anyone else tired of hearing the PGA and USGA talk about pace of play? - Page 2

post #19 of 131

This is definitely double edged sword.  Golf is supposed to be relaxing and leisure like but at the same time it has to have some pace to be fully enjoyable.  I don't go out often but last few times I was paired with guys with 70's and a guy who just couldn't hit ball at all.  I remember waiting forever to even hit my shot.  It was quite frustrating.  Marshals did ask us to move faster but just couldn't 

 

I think courses need to take a look at hiring either human caddies or implementing technological assistance for golfers.  Given at most budget course human caddies are quite expensive to hire so this probably can't fly.  For technology side I think there is something that can improve; for example, carts can be equipped with timers, alerts, even voice caddies for yardages with suggested club, etc.  People who walk need to borrow voice caddie/timer module to play.  Similar like that.  It may be initial investments from courses but they will quickly recoup in my opinion.  I think it can definitely improve pace of plays.

post #20 of 131

The amount of time most spend looking for lost balls is inordinately long. The rules say 5 minutes, but many take more than that and on a busy course, 5 minutes in itself is a long time.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayG View Post

I'm going to bring up my old sticky point. PACE of play and SPEED of play- two completely different things. 5 hours or 3 hours- if the line is moving then everyone is relatively happy (for the most part). Playing golf just for the sake of finishing in 3 hours takes all sense of fun and enjoyment out of it. I've played 5 hour rounds that felt glacial because you wait on every shot for "that guy" and the guy in front of them, etc... But I've also played 5 hour rounds that seemed shorter because everyone kept up the PACE of the day. A "slow" pace isn't always bad if everyone is moving along. A normal POP for the area's nicer public courses is probably 4.5, City courses are more like 6 because of crammed times and lack of etiquette all around. That is something you can't fix- they want the revenue.

 

IMHO, there is no solution for city courses other than a grass roots cultural one. The demographic is way too varied and it's like a free for all. No... one... cares... mostly.

post #21 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsp9999 View Post
 

This is definitely double edged sword.  Golf is supposed to be relaxing and leisure like but at the same time it has to have some pace to be fully enjoyable.  I don't go out often but last few times I was paired with guys with 70's and a guy who just couldn't hit ball at all.  I remember waiting forever to even hit my shot.  It was quite frustrating.  Marshals did ask us to move faster but just couldn't 

 

I think courses need to take a look at hiring either human caddies or implementing technological assistance for golfers.  Given at most budget course human caddies are quite expensive to hire so this probably can't fly.  For technology side I think there is something that can improve; for example, carts can be equipped with timers, alerts, even voice caddies for yardages with suggested club, etc.  People who walk need to borrow voice caddie/timer module to play.  Similar like that.  It may be initial investments from courses but they will quickly recoup in my opinion.  I think it can definitely improve pace of plays.

Already happening here. There are two local courses that geo-fence the carts and monitor the pace as the golfers move through the course. Fall out of position the cart beeps a warning and sends an alert to the pro shop. If they fall back enough the cart will either be disabled or a ranger will come out and make them roll to where they should be with a warning. Customers agree to it by signing the cart receipt and walking isn't allowed.

 

GPS technology is more affordable than people realize. The units I use daily are just over $100 each. Those are designed for motor vehicles but I suspect whatever courses use are the same. The displays they use at my home course are just small tablets akin to the cheapest stuff they sell at Walmart. The software is web based and free, comes with the GPS subscription. We renew ours if the device is still worth using for $19.00 per unit after 3 years. Installing them on a golf cart would be very simple.

post #22 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

Already happening here. There are two local courses that geo-fence the carts and monitor the pace as the golfers move through the course. Fall out of position the cart beeps a warning and sends an alert to the pro shop. If they fall back enough the cart will either be disabled or a ranger will come out and make them roll to where they should be with a warning. Customers agree to it by signing the cart receipt and walking isn't allowed.

 

GPS technology is more affordable than people realize. The units I use daily are just over $100 each. Those are designed for motor vehicles but I suspect whatever courses use are the same. The displays they use at my home course are just small tablets akin to the cheapest stuff they sell at Walmart. The software is web based and free, comes with the GPS subscription. We renew ours if the device is still worth using for $19.00 per unit after 3 years. Installing them on a golf cart would be very simple.

 

 

Pretty cool.  GPS is definitely dirt cheap now.  It will definitely give new players to accept golf when they can be advised with some type of club selection and yardage.  Of course hitting ball will always be on the players. :whistle:

post #23 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 

Already happening here. There are two local courses that geo-fence the carts and monitor the pace as the golfers move through the course. Fall out of position the cart beeps a warning and sends an alert to the pro shop. If they fall back enough the cart will either be disabled or a ranger will come out and make them roll to where they should be with a warning. Customers agree to it by signing the cart receipt and walking isn't allowed.

 

GPS technology is more affordable than people realize. The units I use daily are just over $100 each. Those are designed for motor vehicles but I suspect whatever courses use are the same. The displays they use at my home course are just small tablets akin to the cheapest stuff they sell at Walmart. The software is web based and free, comes with the GPS subscription. We renew ours if the device is still worth using for $19.00 per unit after 3 years. Installing them on a golf cart would be very simple.

 

Disabling the cart is just stupid. Warning the ranger is a pretty good idea. I like those units. I like seeing how fast a pace we are playing. 

post #24 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post
 

 

Disabling the cart is just stupid. Warning the ranger is a pretty good idea. I like those units. I like seeing how fast a pace we are playing. 


They don't disable it on the fairway or anything. Just when they fall so far back they want them stationary until someone can get out there. Typically it's because in addition to being slow the cart is in areas it shouldn't be and they've been watching someone jerk around. Last summer the one time I saw it they were escorted from the course, handed a refund and asked to leave. At one course if the carts get within 30 yards of the green it kills power automatically. You see dorks pushing them back to get them rolling again. Which really takes some doing because the cart beeps a series of warnings in addition to flashing a message on the display, they also warn to stay on path for path only holes. Happens to my step-dad every time we play there. He is accustomed to private course golf where they drive their personal carts pretty much anywhere they want. But yeah the onboard POP clock is really cool. You can see how far ahead or behind you are. Pretty sure it gives a POP for each hole in the flyover preview. Another thing that can speed play, love the " long hitters watch out for the bunkers on the right they are x yards out" commentary. Used to be able to order food and beverages via GPS there, that was cool.

post #25 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post

I'm not tired of hearing about it because it still remains a problem. I WISH I was tired of hearing about it because more was being done to actually improve pace of play.

I wish the PGA Tour did something, but they're member operated.

 

Other then interrupting my nap...which sometimes it can be a good thing the pace of play on the PGA tour is slow...I don't miss many holes between dozes...

 

I don't see how speeding up the pace of play on the PGA tour is going to change my Saturday morning foursome. What will impact my Saturday morning foursome are a couple of things.

 

1. The local course make it very clear what the expectations are for a round of golf, my course does a decent job.

2. Empower the marshals to be able to penalize golfers who fall behind, I've yet to see a course really do this.

3. Education by the local course to it's clients.

 

I don't believe the problem is a PGA Tour Problem or a USGA problem. I would seriously doubt 1 player has quit playing golf because Kevin Nah took 60 seconds instead of 45 or because the last US  Am took 5.5 hours to play.

 

Where it cause people to quit the game is when their local course accepts 5 hour rounds and does not treat them with respect.

 

I would even goes as far as saying most private clubs are pretty strict about pace of play...last thing you wanted to do was take longer then 3.5 hours at a private course I was an assistant at in East Texas back in the early 90's. The members would have your head...

post #26 of 131

I think the point of the PGA leading by example is that they don't waste time because it sets a bad example.   People think that they need the extra deliberation or time to make the right decision or get ready for a shot.   Not everyone is quick, but you can be silly and take up time.   Hey if you have two practice swings and hover over the ball for 15 seconds, if you play ready golf and don't look at each putt from four angles you'll be fine.

 

It's one of many problems that affect slow play.   Sadly beginners are usually pretty quick because they don't know enough yet to be incredibly overdone about their routines.   

post #27 of 131
Thread Starter 

Ok, after reading the replies I see that I didn't word the initial post correctly.  

 

I'm with everybody that it's still an issue.  My issue is with out-of-touch suits from the PGA of America (ie, David Fay), who belong to exclusive clubs, getting on television and explaining why play is so slow on muni's they would never step foot on.  I've had some awfully slow rounds at private clubs, too, for that matter.

 

And I meant the PGA of America, not the PGA Tour, if there was any confusion there.

 

I'll edit this into the first post, not that it matters much now.

 

EDIT--Too late to edit it into the first post.  But not to edit this post about editing the first post.  

post #28 of 131

I guess I've been lucky and the slow play issues that so many people encounter have been relative rarities to me.  I'll make a couple of observations though.

 

1) Slow play will almost always be more of an issue at public courses than private.  Private courses have options for policing pace of play that public courses don't have.  The primary one of these is peer pressure.  If you keep fellow members out on the course for 5 or 6 hours you will undoubtedly hear about it (unless you are the Judge Smails type and lord it over your fellow members I guess).  If that doesn't work then official sanctions are a possibility.  On the other hand, the hacker on a public course probably doesn't care what you think of his pace of play and, barring kicking him off the course, not a lot that anyone can do.

 

2) Those who watch PGA tour players on TV see them taking practice swings, plumbing putts, checking the yardage books, etc.  What they don't see is how quickly the pros move between shots.  From my (admittedly limited) experience these guys hustle between shots.  I'm not seeing them sauntering out there.  I'm assuming that its because they want to spend their time on "value added activities" (checking yardage, wind, etc.).  The pros also spend (virtually) zero time searching for lost balls which can be a major time killer for the rest of us.

 

3) I think the 15" hole is a bad, bad idea.  As others have pointed out that isn't where the majority of time is taken.  The last 10 feet probably takes a disproportionate amount of time but the 350 yards before that take the most clock time.  The 15" hole would, in my opinion, turn it into a bit of a farce.

 

I like some of the electronic ideas I've seen posted.  Carts with "Smart" GPS would be nice and I could support that idea.  Connecting them to a small "shock plate" in the cart might help too!

post #29 of 131
Private clubs really have different issues with it. A lot of people who shouldn't be slow, are slower than molasses uphill at mine and there are no repercussions. I don't blame the people who work there, why make trouble with someone who will happily give you trouble back?
post #30 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguirre View Post
 

My issue is with out-of-touch suits from the PGA of America (ie, David Fay), who belong to exclusive clubs, getting on television and explaining why play is so slow on muni's they would never step foot on.  I've had some awfully slow rounds at private clubs, too, for that matter.

 

And I meant the PGA of America, not the PGA Tour, if there was any confusion there.

 

Who knows what you meant since you think David Fay is with the PGA of America? :-P

 

And I think it's more than fair to include the PGA Tour in the discussion too.

post #31 of 131
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iacas View Post
 

 

Who knows what you meant since you think David Fay is with the PGA of America? :-P

 

And I think it's more than fair to include the PGA Tour in the discussion too.

Ha!  I think I meant to say PGA of America or USGA and forgot to add the second.

post #32 of 131

Yes, it is getting tiring to hear about pace and never see anything done.

 

It starts with the course.  Courses need to make it a priority to create conditions that are conducive to a reasonable pace.

 

Next it falls to the individual golfer to play in a manner that allows a reasonable pace of play.  It also falls to us golfers to help other golfers understand how to move efficiently around the course.

 

Lastly, golf organizations such as the USGA and PGA need to invest money into research on and implementation of proven methods for creating and maintaining an acceptable pace of play.  Clever public service announcements are for the most part a waste of money.

 

I would love to see the USGA take some of their massive surplus and enroll a dozen municipal courses with known severe pace of play problems in a "pace" program.  Subsidize the courses while the USGA studies and experiments with all the facets of the game that contribute to the pace issue.  Create a blue print that will work and actively "sell" it to all their members.  If a course implements all the elements of the program, let them advertise they are "USGA Pace Certified."  Pretty soon courses that are not compliant will see their revenue drop - which probably will mean a better pace, too.

 

It is not going to happen but I can dream.

post #33 of 131

I believe the "while we're young" initiative the USGA developed for Pace of Play fell on mostly deaf ears.  I still see courses set up on weekends and holidays with overly difficult flag placements and a failure to implement few if any of the other initiatives that the USGA recommended.  I don't understand the apathy of the course management in not addressing pace of play and wonder what would be the reason;

  • They don't believe their course(s) have pace of play issues
  • They don't care if pace of play on their course is slow or unbearable because it's not currently affecting their revenue
  • They fear that some of the initiatives, like simpler pin placement and slower greens would not be well received by the better golfers.  It seems golfers are masochists and enjoy playing the most challenging courses even if that means a slower pace of play.  For example, the popularity of the different courses at Bethpage are aligned with their level of difficulty.  The Black course is by far the most popular despite it being the most difficult.  
post #34 of 131

I am tired of it and I think nothing will come of it.

 

I really think it comes down to people just not being ready when its their turn, or talking when they should be swinging.  Those people don't realize what they're doing and the message is too diverse to get through to them.  

post #35 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsc123 View Post
 

I am tired of it and I think nothing will come of it.

 

I really think it comes down to people just not being ready when its their turn, or talking when they should be swinging.  Those people don't realize what they're doing and the message is too diverse to get through to them.  

 

I agree with bolded, Dan. Drives me nuts. I really don't think anything the PGA/USGA/Golf Channel has had or will make an impact. These folks are just who they are and mostly oblivious to it all, but somehow it's got to be something we all just do. It can't easily be enforced, because the courses don't like pissing off their customers. 

 

I'm often on the tee ready to go when the group clears, usually without the "honors" and saying things like "ready golf" or "alright, we're up guys"... but some guys just stand around chatting. Not even thinking about club selection as I'm already teeing off. Do they not get the hint?

 

On the bright side, I thought we were all pretty rocking during our TST Mid Atlantic outing. Other than our OB shots and environmental waste area shots slowing us down. :)

post #36 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallT View Post

 

I'm often on the tee ready to go when the group clears, usually without the "honors" and saying things like "ready golf" or "alright, we're up guys"... but some guys just stand around chatting. Not even thinking about club selection as I'm already teeing off. Do they not get the hint?

 

 

No, they do not.  Last fall I was playing by myself and joined a two-some (man and woman) that I had caught up with.  The woman talked incessantly.  We walked down the fairway: she talked.  We found my ball: she talked.  I chose my club and took a stance: she continued to talk.  I backed off, took some practice swings:  she talked. I took my stance again: she continued to talk.  I finally just took my shot and then said, "we need to speed up, there are people waiting on us"  She said, "we'll just let them play through."  I replied, "well, I'm trying to get through 18 holes today so I'm just going to pick up and move to the next hole. nice to have met you both."

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