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Anyone else tired of hearing the PGA and USGA talk about pace of play? - Page 4

post #55 of 131
Sorry, spe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shindig View Post

Who is Nah? Never heard of someone named Nah (first or last name), but he keeps getting mentioned in this thread.

I think a starting piece is to allow a playing partner (on TOUR; not in every day groups, that'll just slow it down more) to just jump ahead. Oh, you're taking forever and aren't ready to hit your approach and the green's clear? I'll hit mine and start walking (while staying out of the way). Once you hit yours, I'll get to the green and putt. Meet you on the next tee. I think it's been nearly a decade since anyone on TOUR did this.

Sorry, spelled it wrong. It's Kevin Na.. Notorious rep for being a dawdler.

The players would LOVE to be able to play ready golf... the speedier players HATE being paired with known pokes. It affects their play more than vice-versa.
post #56 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave2512 View Post
 


If recreational golfers feel they can play slow because pros do they need a reality check. For all practical purposes they aren't playing the same game. If for no other reason is hundreds of thousands aren't being won and lost. I see the PGA Tour pace problems and PGA pace campaign as different things with different needs. IMO the pro spending 2 minutes trying to decide which wedge to use in hopes of sticking it close and the weekend golfers kicking through weeds on the way to a triple call for different solutions.

Perhaps so.  But I do believe some amateurs viewing PGA events will come away with the concept that slower play will lead to better play.  While not true the PGA guys must believe it is because even when in the fairway with a simple wedge shot they can take more than a minute to make the shot.

 

I would also agree with some earlier comments that there doesn't seem to be any agreement on what is a decent time for a foursome to complete 18 holes.  I would think somewhere between 11-13 minutes a hole is acceptable times for a foursome of average golfers on average courses (and there won't be agreement on what those are either I suspect). Unfortunately many courses schedule tee times 7 - 8 minutes apart and that is a 2 1/2  hour or less round which most foursomes cannot comfortably do.  So the course becomes crowded and this exacerbates the problem.  

 

Regardless of all that it would be helpful if the USGA & PGA could arrive at some agreement on what is an acceptable time for a foursome to complete a round of golf.  Or maybe, as some courses already do, let the golfer know when he makes a tee time what is the expected round time and that it will be vigorously enforced and then enforce it.

post #57 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghalfaire View Post

 

I would also agree with some earlier comments that there doesn't seem to be any agreement on what is a decent time for a foursome to complete 18 holes.

 

It depends on type of course, time of day, public/private, big city/busy vs middle of nowhere/quiet vs resort vs etc.... If you establish a "standard", you'd have to caveat it with these conditions.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with 4.5 to 5 on an ultra crowded New York City/Long Island course during the weekend, but I'd expect 5.5 minimum, 6 probably, and 6.5 or 7 is not out of the question.

 

If it's in a less populated area or super early, I'd expect a faster pace. As fast as 3.5.

 

Resorts tend to be slower. You have courses with a mix of walkers/riders, etc...

post #58 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

Sorry, spe
Sorry, spelled it wrong. It's Kevin Na.. Notorious rep for being a dawdler.

Oh him. Yeah, sorry, I do know who he is. I should have figured it out. First professional I was ever told I look like.
post #59 of 131
Here's the proble. People think that 4.5 hrs is acceptable and a good place to play. It is not. 4.5 hrs is SLOOOOW!!! I don't know where that thought came from, and courses reinforce it by posting a 4.5 hrs round is preferred.
post #60 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevets88 View Post
 

 

It depends on type of course, time of day, public/private, big city/busy vs middle of nowhere/quiet vs resort vs etc.... If you establish a "standard", you'd have to caveat it with these conditions.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with 4.5 to 5 on an ultra crowded New York City/Long Island course during the weekend, but I'd expect 5.5 minimum, 6 probably, and 6.5 or 7 is not out of the question.

 

If it's in a less populated area or super early, I'd expect a faster pace. As fast as 3.5.

 

Resorts tend to be slower. You have courses with a mix of walkers/riders, etc...

I'm glad I don't have to deal with that.

 

My scale: 2 1/2 hours is too fast, 3 hours is about right, 3 1/2 hours is acceptable, 4 hours is slightly irritating, and over that I probably won't ever come back.

post #61 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

I'm glad I don't have to deal with that.

My scale: 2 1/2 hours is too fast, 3 hours is about right, 3 1/2 hours is acceptable, 4 hours is slightly irritating, and over that I probably won't ever come back.

I totally agree. I don't know how many times I've played with a foursome (of oftentimes strangers I'm put with) and we seemingly wait on almost all tee boxes and then finish in 4 hours. 4 hours is borderline slow - as you said, irritating.
post #62 of 131

I think the Starters/Rangers could over advice at the start of the round. Ascertain the ability of the foursome teeing off, encourange the correct tee for their abilities, and yes players can easily play from different tees. Encourage the players not to spend a lot time looking for lost balls. Use the drop zones, the clubs could do a better job on marking these. Range Finders, use them but be quick about it. Remind them of the pace expectations. Play ready golf if needed. etc. And then police the course and move players along, help spot balls, or issue all clears for blind spots.

 

There are other things, don't drive the cart to each ball, while one is hitting the other can walk over and assess his ball, take a couple of clubs etc. 

 

And get the beverage cart to stop while they're waiting or at the tee, not while the players are in the middle of the hole playing their ball.

 

When my kids were younger the local club hired them on Saturday and Sunday mornings and early afternoon to spot balls at certain holes, this kept players from holding up the pace while looking for balls, provided the kids some cash, they usually earned about $20 for the day, plus tips from the nice guys, and didn't cost the club a ton of money. Everyone was happy, including the parents.

 

I consider 4 hours a comfortable pace for a foursome. Any longer than that and it seems there is a lot of waiting. 


Edited by Snowfly - 4/26/14 at 5:11pm
post #63 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by MS256 View Post

I'm glad I don't have to deal with that.

My scale: 2 1/2 hours is too fast, 3 hours is about right, 3 1/2 hours is acceptable, 4 hours is slightly irritating, and over that I probably won't ever come back.

No offense, but how far are you from a "real" city"?b2_tongue.gif If you were to move to the NYC Metro/Long Island/N. New Jersey area, your criteria would apply for 9 holes. There just isn't enough space on the PUBLIC courses to accommodate everyone. As mentioned in another post- You play on a Saturday or Sunday, then you get what you get. Unfortunately, on the city courses and most of the nearby public courses, ANY DAY of the week is going to be that way. We will drive the 50 miles out to the Riverhead area and play in 4.5 and be home in less time to play a city course such as Clearview, especially on a Sunday.
post #64 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

No offense, but how far are you from a "real" city"?b2_tongue.gif If you were to move to the NYC Metro/Long Island/N. New Jersey area, your criteria would apply for 9 holes. There just isn't enough space on the PUBLIC courses to accommodate everyone. As mentioned in another post- You play on a Saturday or Sunday, then you get what you get. Unfortunately, on the city courses and most of the nearby public courses, ANY DAY of the week is going to be that way. We will drive the 50 miles out to the Riverhead area and play in 4.5 and be home in less time to play a city course such as Clearview, especially on a Sunday.

How long does it take the first group out in the morning to play 18 in a "real city"?
post #65 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

No offense, but how far are you from a "real" city"?b2_tongue.gif If you were to move to the NYC Metro/Long Island/N. New Jersey area, your criteria would apply for 9 holes. There just isn't enough space on the PUBLIC courses to accommodate everyone. As mentioned in another post- You play on a Saturday or Sunday, then you get what you get. Unfortunately, on the city courses and most of the nearby public courses, ANY DAY of the week is going to be that way. We will drive the 50 miles out to the Riverhead area and play in 4.5 and be home in less time to play a city course such as Clearview, especially on a Sunday.

My criteria wouldn't change at all. I would just be unhappy while playing a lot more than I am now. a2_wink.gif
post #66 of 131
I've heard a lot of things to improve pace of play but haven't heard changing stroke and distance to just a stroke penalty, dropping anywhere along line of flight, and not taking the distance penalty weather your ball is identified or not, for anyone that plays less than 20 rounds a year or will shoot 90 or more or some such thing. Errant shots and looking for your ball to identify it hold up play. Take the stress out of it, drop one and play on, the average Joe just wants to rip it and play so let him, why complicate it for him, red stakes, white stakes?
post #67 of 131
Sometimed the slowest type of group may not be women or beginners but 4 middle aged men with a little money and a lot of prestige on the line with their buddies. They follow each other to check if their opponent is improving his lie, using the right ball, or using a foot wedge. Everyone's afraid to loose and will look for their ball or a putting line forever. Then they discuss score immediately at green side and must know how the match is going before moving to the next tee. That's what I see on the weekends, these groups don't care who they're holding up and never let a group pass.
post #68 of 131
That first group out is probably the reason for the 6 hour rounds... It will be those that feel above everyone else and feel entitled because they got firsts. They won't rush and will play like they're the only ones out there since there's nobody in front that they can see. They'll be playing for a dollar a side or something ridiculous, have horrible cart etiquette (certainly won't be walking), play from tees that are too long, not see the ball since it will be into the sun several times and be nowhere near where it actually is when they go look for it. Each putt will be a study in algebra AND trigonometry and still be either 10 feet short or 10 feet past, and every putt will be read the same way, right up until that putt for a 9 finally drops.

The group behind will naturally wait until the first group is 480 yards away until they hit their 140 yard wormburners and 90*, 2 fairways over slices or hooks, and so on through the day. IT's the nature of the city courses.
post #69 of 131

They should let groups play through on the PGA tour. The benefit of posting the score first is you can be in the last group on Sunday. If you are playing slow, then that could be a penalty they could give up if they required the group behind them to play through. 

post #70 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayG View Post

That first group out is probably the reason for the 6 hour rounds... It will be those that feel above everyone else and feel entitled because they got firsts. They won't rush and will play like they're the only ones out there since there's nobody in front that they can see. They'll be playing for a dollar a side or something ridiculous, have horrible cart etiquette (certainly won't be walking), play from tees that are too long, not see the ball since it will be into the sun several times and be nowhere near where it actually is when they go look for it. Each putt will be a study in algebra AND trigonometry and still be either 10 feet short or 10 feet past, and every putt will be read the same way, right up until that putt for a 9 finally drops.

The group behind will naturally wait until the first group is 480 yards away until they hit their 140 yard wormburners and 90*, 2 fairways over slices or hooks, and so on through the day. IT's the nature of the city courses.

So it has nothing to do with the "big city".... Like everywhere else, it's just about people who drag their feet, courses that allow them to do so, and golfers who make excuses and continue to support those courses rather than taking their business elsewhere.
post #71 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel25 View Post

They should let groups play through on the PGA tour. The benefit of posting the score first is you can be in the last group on Sunday. If you are playing slow, then that could be a penalty they could give up if they required the group behind them to play through. 

I would love to see that. I think a little public humiliation of the pros would help out the pace of play a bit.
post #72 of 131
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rscott8 View Post

I've heard a lot of things to improve pace of play but haven't heard changing stroke and distance to just a stroke penalty, dropping anywhere along line of flight, and not taking the distance penalty weather your ball is identified or not, for anyone that plays less than 20 rounds a year or will shoot 90 or more or some such thing. Errant shots and looking for your ball to identify it hold up play. Take the stress out of it, drop one and play on, the average Joe just wants to rip it and play so let him, why complicate it for him, red stakes, white stakes?

Absolutely yes.  In fact, stroke and distance could be done away with on any level.  Tom Watson favors this, and so do I.  

 

You hit your ball into a water hazard, and don't get stroke and distance.  But some arbitrary (in terms of course design) property boundry's force you to take distance as well?  

 

Tidewater in North Carolina has a good local rule here.  It's lined with homes and if you hit it OB there you can take a drop, as if it's a lateral hazard.  This stops provisionals and cuts down on ball searching, since the penalty is less severe.  When I plan golf trips and I'm making the rules, I make this standard, because nobody ever hits two provisionals or actually drives back to the tee.  

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